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U21 National Team Debate Thread (thread closed)

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This Post:
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293113.10 in reply to 293113.9
Date: 04/14/2018 03:54:07
Overall Posts Rated:
5858
Which level of outside defense would you like to have on your PF ? Remember that the more time is pent on it, the more it will cost on primaries !


I say at least 9. Because indeed if the level will be higher, it will cost on primaries like you said.
The other skills IS, ID, REB and SB should be 14, 14, 13, 12

Give me an ideal (but realistic !) profile for such a SF. You seem to put the emphasize on defense, something I respect. Tell me step by step the advice you would give to bring your dream SF to the defense you'd like (both OD and ID then).


Jump Shot: 5 Jump Range: 5
Outside Def.: 11 Handling: 5
Driving: 10 Passing: 10
Inside Shot: 10 Inside Def.: 11
Rebounding: 9 Shot Blocking: 9
Free Throw: 7

I think this is realistic. I'll look at skills OD, DR, IS, Reb, ID an SB.



If you think I'm wrong or that the skills I presented are not realistic, say it to me.
I seriously believe that you're great company. On the other hand, I'm relatively new in the game, so the words you say mean a lot to me, because I will learn from that. Hopefully (if I'm elected) we can achieve great things.
But that's up to you.

This Post:
00
293113.11 in reply to 293113.10
Date: 04/14/2018 04:26:26
TheRainmakers
II.3
Overall Posts Rated:
8383
Hey,

Your PF stat line, are realistic but really hard to achieve, if you get a PF that has 7 OD, ok you can go for 9 OD but if you PF has below 5 this is absolutely not doable. Either you go down on your OD or on your primaries. If you get an average 18 year old PF 14/14/13/12 is already hard to achieve.

For your SF you should take a look at your skillset, if you train 1vs1 fwds, no way you have 10 driving and 5 handling.
5 JS/JR is by far not enough.

You main issue is the starting skills, you should probably aim for starting TSP +- 45. Most managers can't afford 18 year olds with TSP +60.
Some seasons ago I bought two one for +4 million and one for +6 million.

Realistically you will get 8-12 pops per season. They will have 3 seasons to get to your skillsets. The skillsets you propose are realistically at the end of their U21 carreer but not at the start of it.

Your SF build: 86 TSP
Your PF: 53 TIP, if you add 9 OD we are already at 62 and you still have 5 skills to train. DR/HA should he at least 7 or 8 (TSP: 76), JR/PA hard to tell because a lack of time, JS at least 7.
So we have a TSP of 83 without adding PA and JR.

Maybe you should reconsider your skillsets.

My question, give me an alternative build for the start of their U21 career.

Last edited by BigT at 04/14/2018 07:01:04

From: AnGi77

To: BigT
This Post:
00
293113.12 in reply to 293113.11
Date: 04/14/2018 06:42:51
Estrellas Absurdas
II.4
Overall Posts Rated:
4343
Second Team:
Almost Innocents
You main issue is the starting skills, you shoukd probably aim for startibg TSP +- 45. Most managers can't afford 18 year olds with TSP +60.

I agree BigT made here a main point! OD 9 for PF is hard to reach if you want insides to be at an acceptable level for U21. (for NT players, of course the situation is somewhat else.) For SF's the handling is imo not good... should be somewhat higher (altough I think training 1vs1 will get it higher than 5 unless the handling was atrocious

In extra I can add 18y olds with TSP +60 are very rare, I seldom see them! For your info (and from the skills taken from the TL and others send in answer to our mails) I can tell you the highest TSP in Belgium for our 18y old drafts is 57 for a perennial allstar PG.

This Post:
00
293113.13 in reply to 293113.12
Date: 04/14/2018 07:13:23
Kelmis Spartans
BBBL
Overall Posts Rated:
136136
Second Team:
Eupen Scythe
Thank you for your answer !

From: Tom10

This Post:
11
293113.14 in reply to 293113.9
Date: 04/14/2018 13:20:59
Collège Saint-Louis Basket
II.2
Overall Posts Rated:
5050
First of all, outside of 1v1 and jump shot trainings, monpost is absolutely mandatory. Bipost training is absolutely worthless, unless you're doing it with a level 6 coach (as penalty for bipost training is less important on coaches level 6 and above) but even them I would only agree to it reluctantly.


Yes I wrote that 1v1 was compulsory to begin. About JS training then, I can understand but as JS is trained with 1v1 and with Outside Shooting later, I thought it was more important to train Passing and Pressing instead of waiting. But if you do JS training, it won't be possible to finish with an Outside Shooting training (lack of time) so when do you train JR ? Maybe you will tell me "Never, we don't have time for U21". Therefore, if it is your answer, I begin to understand that focus on outside tactic for U21 is impossible because you don't have time to develop all outside skills correctly.

So to answer, if I really want players with outside orientation (JR = 9 for PG (11 for SG) would be nice, but 8 (10 for SG) is ok), it's unthinkable to skip outside shooting completely for guards. However, as I said, I begin to understand it's easier to focus on inside orientation for U21 as the time is against us.

He may have a point there : if players are very inside-roiented the team will get better results. But it takes time to raise such a generation of players, the players that are now 18 at the start of your / his mandate will be 20 when the new election wil ltake place, so in the meanwhile you'll have to do with what you have at hand.


Outside tactics often produce great results (see season 40 BBB final for example) but as I said, I understand the interest of inside orientation in U21.

I just remind that my initial proposition was to offer an alternative to teams who would have preferred to train their players outside. I have never said to give up inside tactics and inside trainings (for PG/SG/SF especially) !

To successfully use outside tactics to win, how should your inside players look like ?


More balanced for a PF. I would say that a PF for outside tactics should look like to a SF for inside tactics (in the large words). An acceptable JR (7-8), but above all a good level in PA to play Princeton (at least 9). 11 in JS. The same defense that for an inside offense of course.

So far I see that you both failed at drawing a line between a future NT player and a future U21, I am serious about that there will be conflicts that will arise because the training plan to bring a player to NT isn't the same as a U21 and the problem might arise for higher potential players. Keep that in mind !


That was unknown for me before running these elections indeed. Thanks for enlightening me clearly about that.

You are not "picky", just deeply concerned by elections ;) !

From: Dartreb

This Post:
11
293113.15 in reply to 293113.14
Date: 04/14/2018 14:46:32
Kelmis Spartans
BBBL
Overall Posts Rated:
136136
Second Team:
Eupen Scythe
I think that you can skip JR training if your outside players have a high enough inside shooting that it makes them suitable for inside tactics. Otherwise, that's difficult to do without.

but above all a good level in PA to play Princeton (at least 9).


Correct ! High passing is mandatory. You could have added a solid SB and RB in addition to their ID to be really defensive powerhouses inside, aiming at making the opponent's inside players fail and recycle possession.

Anyway, thank you for your answers, both of you.

I now have a better idea for whom I'll vote.

If I may say so, no matter the result but it might be interesting for both of you to stick around, I think there is much to learn here and that will make you better clubas well as NT/U21 managers.

In case you have questions, feel free to ask, whether it is Joe, Angi, AthrunZala or myself, there are never stupid questions (OMG I sound so patronizing when I read myself - this wasn't inteded, just open for help if the need arises).