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You can put me on the list too...

don't want to interfere here. i understand your comment very well, yet i think that what FODje wants to do, is to help the others train players. everyone should be able to get help if they wish for it. right now, those who got a U21 get help, but the others don't ( that is if i am correct about that) and everyone has the right to do it.

however, in ordre not to interfere with the OTYBP, i'd suggest Fodje puts up the list of people on the forum out here! those who coach people and the ones who asked to be coached. that way, both Sum_41, JoeMaverick and anyone else who were to take over one of our NT's at a certain moment, could follow what is going on, and theirby, can assure that it won't interfere with the work of the U21 or Nt teammembers.

Rev

As I see it, it's 2 completely diffrent things.

The OTYBP project (whatever it might mean) is meant for (experienced) managers, to guide them into training the perfect NT player for the Belgian teams.

The coaching project however, is for (new) managers not getting the game very well, to help them manage their own team. This includes training, but is not meant to create the best possible player for the NT, the training help given here might as well focus on training 5 players in that team... It also is meant to help on the economic side, as well as tactical side.

If you ask me, it's 2 total diffrent things we can't even start to compare with each other.
So I also can't see the problem in both existing simultaniously...

Anyone correct me if I might be wrong...

i can atleast give you one name, of a manager, who has started out last season, towards the end of the previous season, and who is still a novice to this game. yet he has got a potential U21 player, and he is training him... (i won't say that i am not advising him alot, teliing him on which position and so on, the player has to play in ordre to get the training and to pop according to the scheme of sum ...) so you could say that he is a case which would ask some help here, and who would be on the list of the OTYBP... (if he were to post here ofcourse)

so i think we should get a list, it's not alot of work to post the names and the names of their coaches, and then the OTYBP can then easely see if it ain't interfering with their list. that will take all the doughts away, and the OTYBP could still ask to transfer someone over to one of their guy's, if we noticed that it would be necessiayr, cause their is a prospect in one of the teams that is being coached by someone else. by posting a lsit, no harm is done, and you can easely follow what is going on.

Rev

Last edited by AthrunZala at 2/15/2010 12:04:59 PM

here's a list od all the coaches and the students it is ment for the unexperianced people who starts play this game

Coach acount W.rang nat. Rang Taal
Angi77 acidje 37181 501 nl
FoDje sierra117 42988 622 nl
Mod_Revo guyoo 29065 367 nl
Kwiyibo88 nl
nimportecky nl
Ventola7 fr
Huvor nl
Ximee fr

hey, since when is my team changed into acidje? Angi was coaching me !!! ;þ

I'm at 100000% agree with the 2 messages of Revo, It's a wonderfull idea but when a manager has a player which is in the U-21 database ---> DON'T TOUCH !!! ^^

A manager in d4/d3 can be a noob in BB but can have a potential talented U-21 oplayer, so the OTYBP (Organisation for the Training of Young Belgian Players) give him some advices to train the player AND to evoluate in BB

Sum

If someone with an NT or U21 talent ask us for help you can not ask us to leave him alone.
What you can do is tell us about it and we will help him aswell but then your OTYBP program does the training and we will do the rest but then you must play open card aswell

FoD

I'm at 100000% agree with the 2 messages of Revo, It's a wonderfull idea but when a manager has a player which is in the U-21 database ---> DON'T TOUCH !!! ^^

A manager in d4/d3 can be a noob in BB but can have a potential talented U-21 oplayer, so the OTYBP (Organisation for the Training of Young Belgian Players) give him some advices to train the player AND to evoluate in BB

Sum

If someone with an NT or U21 talent ask us for help you can not ask us to leave him alone.
What you can do is tell us about it and we will help him aswell but then your OTYBP program does the training and we will do the rest but then you must play open card aswell

FoD

ok guy's, lets make things easy.

we all know that some of the guy's from the U21 or NT staff are going to help out.

So if FoD can post a list, then Sum can check if their aren't any talents in those teams. if that happenes, then one of the people of the U21/NT team, who help out Sum/Joe (or whoever would be U21/NT coach in the futur) will take over the advising of that manager, and thus, all problems solved.

then Sum/Joe is sure that they are being helped by people who they have selected as their staff to help them out, and then the coach himself is getting help aswell.

but what must avoid at all costs, is that someone gets 2 different coaches as the same time. each coach has his own way of training, his own way of training and learning others tactics, and we don't want any manager to get confused, because the U21/Nt staff member tells him something else than his other coach. no one will benifit from 2 coaches saying other stuff. so that is something that we'll need to prevent at all costs!

their are plural solutions for it.

1) you creat an external forum where the U21/NT mamager can follow very well what is going on, who is coaching who (not a fan of that idea, since it's already hard enough to get people to come to the BB forums, so how on earth do you expect to get them to check a external forum regulary?)

2) FoD posts a list of people and their coaches as he is doing now. if Sum see's that someone is being coached, who has a trainee, then his coach will be replaced ASAP by a U21/NT member. then all Sum has to do, is to say how he would like the guy to be trained, and then the U21/NT guy can explain that person how to train, and thus monitor the player and at the same time explain him how BB works ( thats a big bonus for that manager !)

you can argue with me that all managers deserve a U21/NT coach, but set aside from the fact, that it would mean that the U21/NT would need alot more staffmembers to forfill that job, you'd also need to explain those guy's what is expected form them as a U21/NT staff member, that takes time to get used to, and in the meanwhile, your managers aren't getting any help.

3) you let Sum/Joe ( or whoever will replace him as U21 coach/ NT coach) decided on who will teach who (appoint the mentors), but that will mean that the U21/Nt coach will have even more work to do, and they've got enough work as such to follow up all the players, to see where they get transfered, contacting the mangers and so on...

their are many other options, but those are the most logical ones ( might have missed one though)

if we get in the way of the U21 and their staff, our NT won't progress, cause they usually recrute from the U21. and U21 and NT are also a way to show the others of who can train his players better than others, and who has got the best players... (both the U21 and the NT are doing rather well. the U21 went 8-0, the Nt just missed qualifying for the next round, but they faced alot of bad luck aswell).

(sequel in post 2 :p)

personally, i think option 2 is the easiest one to achieve, so let's go by that. then everything is easely resolved. their are plural reasons why the U21 staff don't put on the forum who is a prospect and in which team he is. and this said, if we learn new managers how to play and train players, the U21/NT staff will benefit from it aswell since they new guy's will know how to train players. but we have to avoid confusing players by giving them 2 coaches, since then the U21 won't see their prospects trained, and the manager himself will be so confused, that he doesn't know what he is doing.

so whatever is decided, we should keep in mind not to confuse anyone, since that won't benefit anyone. i'd suggest that we talk this over this evening in the belgian chatroom, and work out the details their.

cause for the mentor program, their are alot of things that should still be filled in. such as, are we going to teach everyone a basic thing? or is every menton free to decided how far she/he is going to learn things to the guy in question? you can say that you should answer the questions of a guy, but if you only answer what he askes, then their will be ton of thigns that he doesn't know because he didn't read them yet... and learning someone how BB works from scratch, is not very easy either + most of us learn a minimum from the texts available.

their you got my thoughs on this.

the easiest way to do thing, is to hav Sum and FoD to chat (+ a 3rd person ( like LoD i'd say) to ensure that their convo is a productive one. cause if you chat just with 2 persons, and they got another vision, then usually, they end up quarreling anyhow, and that doesn't benefit either of us. and having the community being split between the trainers and the U21/NT staff, that isn't really gonna help things either.)

Rev

to me it is still crystal clear. They ARE two very diffrent things.

The thing that troubles me right now is that there seems to be a (large) negative reaction from the NT-people. I can't help but feel that they act selfish here.

Training a youngster, or even a regular for the NT means you are sacrificing (part) of your BB-team, for the benefit of the NT.
I think it is only fair that those people doing this also realise that, and have the choice to do this or not.
If they do, I don't think they will ask for coaching-assistance, as they already get people who direct them, and tell them how to train.

If people react on this training-program that will be because they (are not happy with their situation and) want to improve their team.
If they choose for this option it is unlikely they will be able to train a NT player to his full potential...

It is clearly 2 very diffrent things, and no matter how much rope-pulling will be going on in here, or anywhere else, it will be the managers themselves that should decide which way they want to take with their team.
There is NO way anyone can justify keeping a manager in ignorance to benefit the NT. BB-team managers should get as much info as possible about their choices, so they can choose what they will find the most enjoyable to play this game.

Everyone has the right to manage only 1 team. It will not suit anyone to trick someone else into doing things for the benefit of an other team, not even any NT team, without informing that person of the consequenses.
If I ever find out someone is unhappy, or maybe even quits the game because he was doing something he wasn't realy aware of because someone else wispered in his ear to trick him into doing things he wouldn'd do when he was better informed, I will get very very mad.

The ONLY thing NT people can do is ASK the manager if he is interested in training an NT player. I think it is even possible to have a manager getting coached, and getting NT help at the same time, because it will be the manager himself making the end-decision how to manage his team in it's totallity.

I hope this is clear to everyone?


In short:
IT'S ONLY THE MANAGER OF THE TEAM THAT WILL DECIDE WHICH KIND OF HELP HE WILL REQUEST, and as such there is absolutely no problem of both existing simultaniously, EVEN if that means we loose some potentially very good NT players. It's not up to us to decide what the owner does with them, it's totally up to them.

Let me stress here that I do not favor any of both sides here. The only thing I am interested in is that the (new) managers are being helped in their best interest, and can enjoy this game as much as possible.

If someone doesn't agree here, I'd like to hear his/her opinion, and reasoning.

Editted for typo's and wording.

Last edited by Lord of Doom at 2/16/2010 10:34:25 AM