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I think that a healthy way of thinking is taking the player's potential into account, but most importantly produce a player that will be useful to the club owner (whether be it by fielding him or selling him).

You may end up with a player that is slightly subpar, but the owner will listen to you the next time and help produce better player.

That being said, outside training is useful to ALL players. Even a C will be crap if he has no clue what a pass or outside defense is. With that in mind, you also have a very short deadline when it comes to having decent U21 players, so you have to max out their primary skills as well, so that's kind of tricky to balance.

Tom, Warrior, what training advice would you give, as head U21 coach, to owners of potential U21 / NT players (regarding training of course) ?

First of all, I would ask you to invest in a decent coach. I think that 5 is the minimum here. Of course, when the finances allow you can take a coach from a higher level.

In addition, all players must play between 48 and 70 minutes in the week preceding the training. This enables them to develop optimally and also gives them an optimal shape.

then the training sessions:

C: I would focus on the main skills --> inside scoring, inside defending, rebounding and some blocks

PF: same as C but more jump-shot, larger shot range and more perimeter defense

SF: is difficult, I would form an inside oriented SF

1) Scoring, defending inside and pressing inside
2) Rebounds and Jumpshot
3) One to one

SG: must be able to defend of course, but also be able to shot. Pressing and jump shot are important here.

PG: pressing, fitting and ball handling

will they follow these instructions?

The issue is not to guess if they will follow the instructions, the same problem would appear for everybody by thinking like this. I won’t order any manger an outside training for a youngster if the team he is in has played LI since always or doesn’t have enough team mates to play an outside tactic.
You may have on the opposite, some managers who want to play outside tactics and are for the moment obliged to train their player as an « inside-focus guy » to get a chance of seeing their player playing for Belgium. I speak for these specific ones.

I agree that the best results will come with defense… but I’ve never told about neglecting defense, quite the contrary ! On the other side, you tell me that the best results will come from inside related plays. What do you mean with this ? Only LP and LI will make you win the though games ? Try to win a though game with an outside tactic is utopian ?

You would consider an outside training plan for all positions or just SF/PF spot?

For all positions but obviously, for example, the outside training plan for a C won’t be very different from his inside training plan. And of course, for a C, having a solid base in IS, ID, RB, SB is way more important than increase his PA or OD when you want him ready for U21.

Last edited by Tom10 at 04/13/2018 08:44:13

First of all, I would ask you to invest in a decent coach. I think that 5 is the minimum here. Of course, when the finances allow you can take a coach from a higher level.

In addition, all players must play between 48 and 70 minutes in the week preceding the training. This enables them to develop optimally and also gives them an optimal shape.

Can't agree more... this is a basic rule.

About training orders, whatever the position, every potential U21/NT must begin with 1v1 (advised for Forwards). The duration depends on the position and so the minimum skill-level asked (really short for a C).

PG : keep up with Passing/Pressing. Finish with Outside Shooting. For each, on 1 position (PG here) at a time if possible but not more that 2 (PG/SG here).

SG : keep up with Pressing/Outside Shooting. Finish with Passing. Same note than for PG.

SF : keep up with Inside Defense. Then Pressing. Finish with Passing (and if possible Outside Shooting or Inside shooting according to the player orientation). Same note than for PG.

PF : keep up with Inside Defense. Then Rebound (+ Shot Blocking if really too low after ID and RB trainings). Finish with Passing, Pressing or Outside Shooting according to the player's evolution and the most needed skill. Same note than for PG.

C : exactly like PF but focus only on the four inside skills (for U21 I agree with Dartreb, it seems impossible (and not so benefit) to get some passing or outside shooting/defense). Same note than for PG.

I admit that the training for SF is really hard but we should only train as SF the high potential with high and balanced TSP from the beginning, then I think it's possible.

Last edited by Tom10 at 04/13/2018 09:31:38

Thanks for your answers. I have additionnal question for both of you, these are the bold lines

First of all, I would ask you to invest in a decent coach. I think that 5 is the minimum here. Of course, when the finances allow you can take a coach from a higher level.

Not 100 % agree. Of course a level 5 is better, but you will cut yourself from many teams, mostly D.3 but also D.2, who could otherwise train a suitable player fur the U21. I think that with a proper training plan, level 4 is even enough to make a player reach NT, provided it's some kind of profile that's being sought after.

Don't discourage people to train a player for the national team(s) of they have a level 4 coach, of course pushing for a level 5 is better, but you don't want your owner to run into financial problems. There are already too few teams in Belgium !

then the training sessions:

First of all, and unless you have players that are way ahead in driving and handling, you HAVE to start off with 1v1 (SF/PF ofc). Because the primary skills you will train will greatly benefit from so-called "aspiration". Even for inside players : when you're giving inside defense, it will be quicker if dricing / inside shoot are already up and going.

Your plan for C is almost absolutely correct, remember just to focus on SB before rebound.

PF: same as C but more jump-shot, larger shot range and more perimeter defense

Which level of outside defense would you like to have on your PF ? Remember that the more time is pent on it, the more it will cost on primaries !

SF: is difficult, I would form an inside oriented SF

Give me an ideal (but realistic !) profile for such a SF. You seem to put the emphasize on defense, something I respect. Tell me step by step the advice you would give to bring your dream SF to the defense you'd like (both OD and ID then).

But I agree, SFs in U21 are always a gigantic headache.

@Tom :

PG : keep up with Passing/Pressing. Finish with Outside Shooting. For each, on 1 position (PG here) at a time if possible but not more that 2 (PG/SG here).

SG : keep up with Pressing/Outside Shooting. Finish with Passing. Same note than for PG.

First of all, outside of 1v1 and jump shot trainings, monpost is absolutely mandatory. Bipost training is absolutely worthless, unless you're doing it with a level 6 coach (as penalty for bipost training is less important on coaches level 6 and above) but even them I would only agree to it reluctantly.

What's your opinion on JR and what level of it would you recommend ? Is it fine to skip outside shooting completely, or is it something unthinkable ?

What do you mean with this ? Only LP and LI will make you win the though games ? Try to win a though game with an outside tactic is utopian ?

He may have a point there : if players are very inside-roiented the team will get better results. But it takes time to raise such a generation of players, the players that are now 18 at the start of your / his mandate will be 20 when the new election wil ltake place, so in the meanwhile you'll have to do with what you have at hand.

To successfully use outside tactics to win, how should your inside players look like ?

So far I see that you both failed at drawing a line between a future NT player and a future U21, I am serious about that there will be conflicts that will arise because the training plan to bring a player to NT isn't the same as a U21 and the problem might arise for higher potential players. Keep that in mind !

Sorry if I may seem "picky" but I really don't know whom I should vote for and your answers will help me make up my mind. After that don't worry I'm great company :p

Which level of outside defense would you like to have on your PF ? Remember that the more time is pent on it, the more it will cost on primaries !

I say at least 9. Because indeed if the level will be higher, it will cost on primaries like you said.
The other skills IS, ID, REB and SB should be 14, 14, 13, 12

Give me an ideal (but realistic !) profile for such a SF. You seem to put the emphasize on defense, something I respect. Tell me step by step the advice you would give to bring your dream SF to the defense you'd like (both OD and ID then).

Jump Shot: 5 Jump Range: 5
Outside Def.: 11 Handling: 5
Driving: 10 Passing: 10
Inside Shot: 10 Inside Def.: 11
Rebounding: 9 Shot Blocking: 9
Free Throw: 7

I think this is realistic. I'll look at skills OD, DR, IS, Reb, ID an SB.



If you think I'm wrong or that the skills I presented are not realistic, say it to me.
I seriously believe that you're great company. On the other hand, I'm relatively new in the game, so the words you say mean a lot to me, because I will learn from that. Hopefully (if I'm elected) we can achieve great things.
But that's up to you.

Hey,

Your PF stat line, are realistic but really hard to achieve, if you get a PF that has 7 OD, ok you can go for 9 OD but if you PF has below 5 this is absolutely not doable. Either you go down on your OD or on your primaries. If you get an average 18 year old PF 14/14/13/12 is already hard to achieve.

For your SF you should take a look at your skillset, if you train 1vs1 fwds, no way you have 10 driving and 5 handling.
5 JS/JR is by far not enough.

You main issue is the starting skills, you should probably aim for starting TSP +- 45. Most managers can't afford 18 year olds with TSP +60.
Some seasons ago I bought two one for +4 million and one for +6 million.

Realistically you will get 8-12 pops per season. They will have 3 seasons to get to your skillsets. The skillsets you propose are realistically at the end of their U21 carreer but not at the start of it.

Your SF build: 86 TSP
Your PF: 53 TIP, if you add 9 OD we are already at 62 and you still have 5 skills to train. DR/HA should he at least 7 or 8 (TSP: 76), JR/PA hard to tell because a lack of time, JS at least 7.
So we have a TSP of 83 without adding PA and JR.

Maybe you should reconsider your skillsets.

My question, give me an alternative build for the start of their U21 career.

Last edited by BigT at 04/14/2018 07:01:04

You main issue is the starting skills, you shoukd probably aim for startibg TSP +- 45. Most managers can't afford 18 year olds with TSP +60.

I agree BigT made here a main point! OD 9 for PF is hard to reach if you want insides to be at an acceptable level for U21. (for NT players, of course the situation is somewhat else.) For SF's the handling is imo not good... should be somewhat higher (altough I think training 1vs1 will get it higher than 5 unless the handling was atrocious

In extra I can add 18y olds with TSP +60 are very rare, I seldom see them! For your info (and from the skills taken from the TL and others send in answer to our mails) I can tell you the highest TSP in Belgium for our 18y old drafts is 57 for a perennial allstar PG.

Thank you for your answer !

First of all, outside of 1v1 and jump shot trainings, monpost is absolutely mandatory. Bipost training is absolutely worthless, unless you're doing it with a level 6 coach (as penalty for bipost training is less important on coaches level 6 and above) but even them I would only agree to it reluctantly.

Yes I wrote that 1v1 was compulsory to begin. About JS training then, I can understand but as JS is trained with 1v1 and with Outside Shooting later, I thought it was more important to train Passing and Pressing instead of waiting. But if you do JS training, it won't be possible to finish with an Outside Shooting training (lack of time) so when do you train JR ? Maybe you will tell me "Never, we don't have time for U21". Therefore, if it is your answer, I begin to understand that focus on outside tactic for U21 is impossible because you don't have time to develop all outside skills correctly.

So to answer, if I really want players with outside orientation (JR = 9 for PG (11 for SG) would be nice, but 8 (10 for SG) is ok), it's unthinkable to skip outside shooting completely for guards. However, as I said, I begin to understand it's easier to focus on inside orientation for U21 as the time is against us.

He may have a point there : if players are very inside-roiented the team will get better results. But it takes time to raise such a generation of players, the players that are now 18 at the start of your / his mandate will be 20 when the new election wil ltake place, so in the meanwhile you'll have to do with what you have at hand.

Outside tactics often produce great results (see season 40 BBB final for example) but as I said, I understand the interest of inside orientation in U21.

I just remind that my initial proposition was to offer an alternative to teams who would have preferred to train their players outside. I have never said to give up inside tactics and inside trainings (for PG/SG/SF especially) !

To successfully use outside tactics to win, how should your inside players look like ?

More balanced for a PF. I would say that a PF for outside tactics should look like to a SF for inside tactics (in the large words). An acceptable JR (7-8), but above all a good level in PA to play Princeton (at least 9). 11 in JS. The same defense that for an inside offense of course.

So far I see that you both failed at drawing a line between a future NT player and a future U21, I am serious about that there will be conflicts that will arise because the training plan to bring a player to NT isn't the same as a U21 and the problem might arise for higher potential players. Keep that in mind !

That was unknown for me before running these elections indeed. Thanks for enlightening me clearly about that.

You are not "picky", just deeply concerned by elections ;) !