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need to create two leagues:)

Thank you for your response, although I do disagree completely with that.
I've previously given my very clear opinion on it, and I by far don't prefer that. (Understandably, those conversations have taken place over long period of time, so you probably haven't read all my reasoning behind that). In other words, I do not want to take HGL into that direction.

I find it a lot better to have a Play-in "mini league"/Play-in Playoffs for HGL participation, that has already been speculated on HGL rules (and that demars mentioned about couple of posts ago).

This way all interested applicants would have their shot at entering HGL.

As mentioned before, if (or in the case) this first time ever-phenomenon of no teams leaving HGL after the Season would be repeated, it might be necessary to make HGL "an open league" (which it of course already is to most extent) in the sense of making relegation possible (again, like demars mentioned in his example, even though that could be altered to some extent to favor current HGL teams, such as not forcing them to play in a Play-in league, but only forced to face strongest team of Play-in league after that has finished, to determine if teams will be relegated/promoted from that Season).

Technically in that "mini-league/Play-in Playoffs" would only one or couple of games would be played per team, but it'd also be 'a meet in the middle'-solution as technically it is "a league" of some sort. But the idea of it should never be to create it an additional wide league/division, but to determine which teams would be able to enter the next HGL Season.

Remember though, that relegation doesn't apply on Season 4, so technically there aren't open spots on Season 5 if we don't expand from 18 teams.

Also, if such relegation/promotion Play-in mini-league or Play-in promotion Playoffs would need to take place, and if simultaneously current HGL team(s) would need to be relegated, I thiink that amount of relegated teams should be kept as a minimum. Currently I'm thinking of only worst HGL team of the Season in question (not this season of course, this would be informed prior to Season beginning as demars well mentioned), who might have to be subjected facing the best team of Play-in league/Playoffs.
And also in the case of Play-in league/Playoffs, all efforts would have to be made to minimize amount of games.

For instance what we'd have here, to be on the realistic side, if we'd use Play-in mini league:
Out of these 4 teams (if Hadár would decide they're interested in joining) I would first set the weakest two (clearly weakest 2 teams) to play against each other one elimination match, and only winner would get to continue, so 3 teams would remain. Then two options to continue:
A) a mini league, everyone faces each once, and certain amount of best teams would be allowed to enter next Season (or winner of it would face worst team in HGL on some forthcoming Seasons) or maybe preferably so that
B) a winner of weakest two would face the worst remaining team in salaries in single elimination match, and winner would advance to a Play-in final against best team (in this theoretical example, against Hadár).
C) if more than 1 HGL team would be subjected to relegation on given Season, then it could be determined that best Play-in league team faces worst HGL team, and so on. But I don't think this number should ever exceed two (worst) teams, and maybe even that's too much to reward continuous commitment of HGL managers. (As I said, I completely share anxiety with demars in terms of kicking out current, committed HGL managers).

The downside of it can be, that it's quite clear who's going to take the place for next Season, should Hadár be applying to enter. But this way, the road to enter wouldn't be that hard for each Season for sure, so time would even up the road.

Last edited by Wagner at 3/15/2026 7:52:53 AM

There is a bit to unpack here, Wagner. I agree that if the league was to expand to a maximum of 20 teams, that we cannot cut corners on the great things already occurring. Namely, stats and the like.

If you think we can expand to 20, and I and/or others were willing to take over certain elements to lessen your work load...would you consider 20 teams.

For example, LennuK is already maintaining weekly stat summaries (thank you, LennuK) and I am still working (slowly) on getting this season's full stats (League Leaders) done and posted by the start of the next HGL Season.[..] On top of this, I am happy to take on something else that would reduce your workload, Wagner. After all, we are all a part of the HGL...[..].

These are my thoughts.

I can consider it, but that shouldn't be taken as a promise/commitment or even as a likely end result for Season 5.
As mentioned; always quality before quantity.
Usually, if one is serious about their HG project, one more Season of waiting doesn't kill their enthusiasm. If it does, it probably wasn't on very high level to begin with. What I mean by this is that is is more likely than not (based on previous 3 Seasons) that at least 1 HGL team will decide to exit after Season 5, which would effectively create space in 18 team HGL Season 6 (to enter through Play-in).

All work done by other managers (LennuK. and yourself) with stats and such is appreciated.
There are maybe some tasks that can be re-distributed to other managers if willing applicants are found, but remember also that time used for current stats collection will go up for everybody, if we expand, that will already take up more time, and then one would also have to find even more time if they would like to end up helping in some other background tasks. And as I need to have some background information available and editable at all times, it is likely necessary for me to keep up doing certain work/tasks myself.

Also, what I refer here as an added workload is just based on my assumption on my own workload increase, not even on your workload increase. For example in stats collecting, if we move from 18 teams to 20 teams, there will be +24,2% of more matches.
That's huge addition, in terms of verifying matches for correctedness and creating all match links, it would require us to create new schedule with new challenging responsibilities, and updating team stats. Remember, my team stats have been updated after Round 9, and tomorrow is Round 17. (Would I want an added 24,2% workload at this point in that regard..? Umm.. no? Remember, that itself for example is not a small task in terms of work load and time usage - if if would be, it'd be done already).

Also I haven't checked out every teams' transfer history, maybe again many teams haven't reported of their transfers and things would need to be updated.
Also salary benefit post for Season 4 hasn't been created.
Tomorrow it is necessary to start making Playoff schedule (ORSR-rankings).
Etc.
You'll see the picture.

I also remind everyone, that it's easier to not accept teams than to reduce the league size by kicking out teams (for no apparent reason, to reduce the league size to bearable, in order to remain high quality/standards, also in terms of statistics updating).

What also needs to be kept in mind is that so far I've had "lots" of time to be allocated for HGL. Nothing guarantees this will be the situation forever, so I don't want to expand things without any control, so that it can be maintained even if there would be even less time that I could allocate into HGL.

See, I came here to update league tables on Friday's games, and here I am still discussing about these rather urgent issues. :) In some cases it's "funny" to catch myself on these situations, well, as long as it's not funny and I notice I don't have time to finish some tasks as other things have taken my time.

Last edited by Wagner at 3/15/2026 8:26:32 AM

As far as teams' potential to join HGL on Season 6, it would be possible to make a relegation possibility also conditional for forthcoming HGL Seasons for example in the following way:

if no current HGL teams would decide to withdraw from HGL (allowing another "new" HG teams to enter "organically"), then the rule would be activated/applied on that ongoing Season, that certain number of worst HGL teams (likely one) would be subjected to possibility of relegation from HGL.
In practice meaning not being able to play in HGL next Season, and having to re-apply to HGL in order to get a place in a league; if open spots would be available on next Season, team could be accepted without a Play-in league/Playoffs, and if there would not be as many spots open as there are willing participants, then re-entering would take place through succeeding in Play-in mini-league or Playoffs - a bit like demars for example wrote just few days ago).

Obviously this hasn't been selected as a method, but I wanted to speculate it a bit further now that it came on my mind.

Last edited by Wagner at 3/15/2026 8:46:36 AM

There is a bit to unpack here, Wagner. I agree that if the league was to expand to a maximum of 20 teams, that we cannot cut corners on the great things already occurring. Namely, stats and the like.

If you think we can expand to 20, and I and/or others were willing to take over certain elements to lessen your work load...would you consider 20 teams.

For example, LennuK is already maintaining weekly stat summaries (thank you, LennuK) and I am still working (slowly) on getting this season's full stats (League Leaders) done and posted by the start of the next HGL Season. Next season, I will keep up with this weekly to make it easier to manage. On top of this, I am happy to take on something else that would reduce your workload, Wagner. After all, we are all a part of the HGL...perhaps others will also volunteer to do something (regardless of how small) to share the work and make the HGL better even if it expands slightly.
[..]

Offer for help is always appreciated, and you can remind me again to look on things which could easily be re-distributed.

However, I do need to add, as an addition to my previous comment on making HGL sustainable in terms of my workload (considering that I've now had lots of time that I can use for HGL, and workload needs to remain within acceptable limits in order to be able to run it even if I'd have less time to use for it).

What I mean is that even if I'd then re-distribute some necessary HGL tasks/projects, in an attempt to completely maximize the amount of work put into HGL, it still needs to be remembered that lowering standards IMHO is out of question, no matter what the reason for it would be (read next sentences so you all will get my point).

What I also mean by that, is that frankly I could never be certain about plans of other managers in the future. ((Even you have decided to not participate HGL many times and in some occasion(s?) it's been a late decision (it's definitely not an accusation, just a reality), even though I believe you had mentioned several times you wouldn't be exiting HGL in the future)).

So again what I mean by these, if I have have loaded some manager(s) a mountain of necessary HGL tasks, and this/these manager(s) decides to exit HGL and/or withdraw from doing those tasks, the workload that is poured on my neck by that action needs to be manageable in any case, so that the level/quality of HGL doesn't need to be dropped due to someone else's decisions.

And like mentioned, if one doesn't think it through carefully, adding 2 teams (+11,1% increase) doesn't look like much to the outside, but in reality the added workload in many aspects is closer to +24,2%, which is the amount of added matches.

What I'm looking for in the future is actually lessen (not increase) the workload by optimizing things (and making all managers committed to the process - still surprisingly often certain Season-to-Season tasks wouldn't get done without continuous intervention...) while maintaining the same (or almost same) amount of teams, while simultaneously making small changes if necessary to give some new teams a possibility to enter HGL (through Play-in?).

Also what needs to be considered, is that I believe adding more matches is watering down the importance of one win, and in certain cases it's 99+% obvious what the score of match vs. any given/most opponents would be (if team is very weak in salaries against other HGL opponents), and I believe many of us don't want to have too many of "filler matches" in HGL anyway.

Having said that, there will always be big difference (not even) matches in HGL just like in any IRL basketball league with 16+ participants, but IRL there is a professional, paid staff maintaining such leagues and added workload is only a matter of cost, which is usually not a problem in professional environments where also income is being created.
As you all know, HGL runs based on a voluntary "work force".

Last edited by Wagner at 3/15/2026 9:50:28 AM

HGL league table updated after 16 Rounds of play.

Tomorrow is time for last Round of RS, and there's a lot at stake like you all can see by viewing a league table.

@all:
Remember: ORSR will be created after a Round 17, and based on that First Round Playoff schedule is published in Playoff post for Season 4.

So if there's any chance you would be playing on First Round (teams ranked 5-12), please be prepared to start sending match challenge immediately (after ORSR-table release - or if it's 100% clear what your opponent will be before that publication, you can already send challenges before it but don't hesitate to wait for the publication if you're unsure at all!).


As a reminder for Playoffs for all:

- Match time remains the same as during Regular Season (the same time that you now see in your BB schedule when you look at it), so 13.30 EET (a.k.a. 01.30 PM EET, Eastern European Time, Normal Time a.k.a. Winter Time).

- Playoff matches will always be played on a home court of a better ranked (ORSR) team!

- Technically home team is responsible for sending PU match challenge, but either team can send challenge (I don't mind) as long as it's details (court balance, day, time) are 100% correct.

Last edited by Wagner at 3/15/2026 10:45:47 AM

Some few thoughts :

-a- you wrote "winter time" just above. I think that we (in France and UE (?)) change to Summer Time in 2 weeks. It could create problems

-b- I have new ideas in :
- case of more than 20 teams
- un-loading the amout of work

If we'd been 24 teams, we could create TWO leagues (2 x 12).
Every team faces 11 other teams of its league.
Post Season : The 2 best of each league make a Final Pool-> 3 games each (a total of games)
Post Season : the same for the teams ranked 3-4 (6 games)
etc... (6 pool of 4 teams)
Post Season Total Games : 6 x 6 = 36 games

Then, Finals :
#1 / # 2 (1 game)
#3 / # 4 (1 game)
The same for each pool
Finals Total -> 12 games

This ranks ALL the teams.
Season 2, the 2 leagues are created like this :
League 1 : #1 + #4 + #5 + #8 + #9 + #12 + #13 + #16 + #17 + #20 + #21 + #24
League 2 : #2 + #3 etc...

Total Games : 132 + 36 + 12 = 180 games
Total Games by team : 11 + 3 + 1 = 15 games (we have 14 weeks)

I think it's pretty fair, even if we don't face EVERY other teams, but each season the leagues will be different.
Every team play the same number of games.
Every one knows that he will stay for the next season (iof he wants to naturally !)

I think (but I haven't mathematically counted everything) that it should give less work BUT :
- WE all should more flexible as there are 3 different phases instead of 2
- it could gives YOU (the chairman) more BB Mails to send for reminding the things to do

What do you think about it ?

Some few thoughts :

-a- you wrote "winter time" just above. I think that we (in France and UE (?)) change to Summer Time in 2 weeks. It could create problems

I'll chop this answer down to two parts.

As for HGL Playoffs, change of time in a middle of Playoffs is very inconvenient, but it shouldn't become a problem (unless I'm mistaken).

At least before time changes to Summer Time in Europe, match time will remain the same. Then, technically we'd end up using 13.30 EET for the rest of Season 4 Playoffs, but we'll see, probably we'll just stick with 13.30 for the rest of Season 4 (as I believe that was the practice on earlier Season when this happened, but I could well be mistaken).

As for now, we just keep organizing matches at 13.30EET (1.30PM) winter time.

-b- I have new ideas in :
- case of more than 20 teams
- un-loading the amout of work

If we'd been 24 teams, we could create TWO leagues (2 x 12).
Every team faces 11 other teams of its league.
Post Season : The 2 best of each league make a Final Pool-> 3 games each (a total of games)
Post Season : the same for the teams ranked 3-4 (6 games)
etc... (6 pool of 4 teams)
Post Season Total Games : 6 x 6 = 36 games

Then, Finals :
#1 / # 2 (1 game)
#3 / # 4 (1 game)
The same for each pool
Finals Total -> 12 games

This ranks ALL the teams.
Season 2, the 2 leagues are created like this :
League 1 : #1 + #4 + #5 + #8 + #9 + #12 + #13 + #16 + #17 + #20 + #21 + #24
League 2 : #2 + #3 etc...

Total Games : 132 + 36 + 12 = 180 games
Total Games by team : 11 + 3 + 1 = 15 games (we have 14 weeks)

I think it's pretty fair, even if we don't face EVERY other teams, but each season the leagues will be different.
Every team play the same number of games.
Every one knows that he will stay for the next season (iof he wants to naturally !)

I think (but I haven't mathematically counted everything) that it should give less work BUT :
- WE all should more flexible as there are 3 different phases instead of 2
- it could gives YOU (the chairman) more BB Mails to send for reminding the things to do

What do you think about it ?

I don't have time to respond to your proposition after perfect consideration, but I'll give my initial thought (which is likely not going to change though).

I thank you for sending ideas demars. Having said that, I don't think this current system should be changed, at least for now.

Like I said, if it seems necessary, it's possible to consider a very short Play-in Playoffs/mini league to determine next Season's (new) participants. It is necessary to consider at this point if it would bring enough additional value to especially add teams that are not yet very/at all competitive, in an exchange of added workload. (My thoughts on this found from previous posts).

This system/proposition that you sent has many challenges "built into it" that this current league system is knowingly built to tackle/evade.

Such as:
- not every team meeting every team (not fair, there's no going around that; also, into what is your ranking of teams into groups A and B based on (#1, 4 and 5 to A) and #2, 3 and 6 to B) etc.)? Why I ask this is because teams will not be distributed 100% evenly. And while they'd be moved into different groups potentially for next season, their team strength doesn't anymore reflect their actual salary value on that season, as teams progress at different speed)

- stats not fair, if not everybody meets everybody

- being more complicated than current system (and also in current system every team is receiving a ranking - if important)

- it would be necessary to change things from season to season (different group composition, challenge responsibilites, schedule) even though no change in participating teams would occur

- we don't want to be using 14 weeks if BB season's lenght is 14 weeks; time for pre-season process/break is needed.


Last edited by Wagner at 3/16/2026 1:47:54 PM

demars:
Some few thoughts :
[..]
If we'd been 24 teams, we could create TWO leagues (2 x 12).
Every team faces 11 other teams of its league.
Post Season : The 2 best of each league make a Final Pool-> 3 games each (a total of games)
Post Season : the same for the teams ranked 3-4 (6 games)
etc... (6 pool of 4 teams)
Post Season Total Games : 6 x 6 = 36 games

Then, Finals :
#1 / # 2 (1 game)
#3 / # 4 (1 game)
The same for each pool
Finals Total -> 12 games

This ranks ALL the teams.
Season 2, the 2 leagues are created like this :
League 1 : #1 + #4 + #5 + #8 + #9 + #12 + #13 + #16 + #17 + #20 + #21 + #24
League 2 : #2 + #3 etc...

Total Games : 132 + 36 + 12 = 180 games
Total Games by team : 11 + 3 + 1 = 15 games (we have 14 weeks)

I think it's pretty fair, even if we don't face EVERY other teams, but each season the leagues will be different.
Every team play the same number of games.
Every one knows that he will stay for the next season (iof he wants to naturally !)

I think (but I haven't mathematically counted everything) that it should give less work BUT :
- WE all should more flexible as there are 3 different phases instead of 2
- it could gives YOU (the chairman) more BB Mails to send for reminding the things to do

What do you think about it ?

MrJ:
I actually like this, demars. It's not perfect, but it is a fair proposal. However, as Wagner has noted, there are still issues. However, I think there will always be issues. [..]

I still believe that while quality is better than quantity, if we have the quantity, we should consider how and if we can grow it.

Ultimately, Wagner will have the last say on any changes/propositions. However, I would encourage all managers competing in the HGL to voice their thoughts.

Yes, everything will always have some issues, but the point is, current system tackles more issues than any system that I've heard of so far. Point is, change shouldn't be implemented based on a statement 'there will always be some issues anyway'.

As mentioned, simple Play-in mini league (HGL Promotion Mini-League/Entry-League or Playoffs and/or mix of both, for example two best of mini-league playing a promotion final, to receive a chance to meet worst team in HGL Regular Season, in order to win a place in HGL next Season) does the trick well enough, if that's seen necessary.

Given the amount of teams not currently "fitting in", it would give those teams chance to meet other teams looking for entry, and give them some idea how their team fares against the competition. One match against each other would be enough to determine the correct and 100% fair "rankings" among those teams looking for entering, so Round Robin could be the system used (if it'd some day be mini-league and not just Playoffs, in where matchups from round to round would be based for example on top8-salaries - this would of course require that there would be even number of teams requiring entry to HGL, or that one team would be excluded from Playoffs by making two worst teams meet each other before the actual HGL entry-Playoffs.

This of course would require then that there is space available in HGL, and here we come to this situation:
- every Season prior to this many teams have not continued in HGL on the next Season; nobody knows situation on Season 5
- if nobody announces not to participate on Season 6, then it might be necessary to conditionally make worst team in HGL to meet the winner of HGL entry league (or expand HGL, up to max. 20 teams)

This HGL entry league would not include many Rounds, as there aren't many teams. However, we would have to ask teams to decide earlier if they want to participate to next HGL Season.
Now the limit is "until the end of Regular Season". If it´d be "until Round 11 in the RS", then we could start this entry league at the same time with HGL RS Round 14 or so, which should leave enough time.

[..]
I still believe that while quality is better than quantity, if we have the quantity, we should consider how and if we can grow it.
[..]

We can always consider options, but like I said:
Quality is always more important than quantity. Always.

And discussing about something doesn't mean it should necessarily be changed. My thought is, don't fix it if it ain't broken.

But if you do change something, think it through carefully before you do, and try to do changes incrementally if possible, to see the effects (and if that correction - if necessary in the first place to begin with - has been big enough to bring the desired change/better balance).

If you read my previous posts carefully, you'll see that I personally do not say "while quality is better than quantity" (like you put it).

I'm telling everyone that:
A) the workload is already almost over the limit now. Not perfect time to add workload, is it?
B) I've had chance to use lots of time to HGL, who knows if that continues "forever"; we shouldn't uncontrollably expand, but to keep that in mind so that HGL will keep on running no matter what
C) it's easier to not accept new teams than to kick out current managers (if we'd expand to 20 now, and new teams would want to enter on next Season, then we'd reach the "relegation situation" almost certainly, and couldn't implement it on the middle of the Season if we want to have the practice of informing teams of that relegation risk prior to Season beginning, and preferably before the participation announcement-deadline is even reached)
D) it's not guaranteed spots wouldn't open to Season 5&/6 by teams's exiting

Everything will always include some ups and downs, but what I feel what we have "found" (come into) here now is in a way a sweet spot, that optimizes fairness and maximizes the benefits that can be achieved, while simultaneously not being overly complicated (this kind of league system is used in highest Finnish ice hockey league, Liiga, so it's gone through "IRL-testing").

Also, it's good to be able to organize as little amount of Playoff matches as possible, because that's the riskiest time of the Season for us. I think we've had only 1 mistake so far (wrong court balance), but amount of mistakes (including unorganized matches) would likely go up if there is a need to do lot more match organizing during the post-season. Also, as demars noted, lot more reminding to do. Which again reminds me of something that I said earlier, that it's more essential to concentrate also to the quality in terms of HGL running as well as possible without extra intervention from Commissioner, and that's where every HGL manager have their impact on HGL.

This, however isn't necessarily due to "new-to-HGL" managers, that certain recurring challenges persist, but sometimes it seems the amount of written instructions/reminders doesn't fix the situation.
So again also in this department, let's first and foremost make sure HGL runs smoothly and managers follow guidelines/procedures/rules, and then if and as that's the case, it's easier to look into expansion. Again, ensuring quality and operational smoothness, instead of first and foremost just looking into expansion.

For instance, certain rules/practices have been there Seasons, and I have written reminders by BBMail and on forum multiple times. As an example, while this isn't as critical task as, say, not organizing matches correctly, I could mention that 3 teams haven't even started filling their own teams' box score post (and some are behind in their updates quite a bit), and we're playing the last Round of RS.

Then, as mentioned, I haven't gone through all transfer-pages, to see if there are unannounced transfers that Commissioner needs to be informed of. These are just two examples, on small part of the league. But you can all imagine it spreads further than these two things.

So: quality is of utmost importance.

Last edited by Wagner at 3/16/2026 8:25:22 AM

Playoff-post for Season 4 is now updated (here: (329502.7)), and Official Regular Season Rankings (ORSR) and First Round Playoff-schedule created.

Please let me know ASAP if you notice any faults in any of that information.

I noticed changing into Daylight Savings Time (DST) during Playoffs will likely cause some confusion as it'll take place later on, but we'll have to be especially accurate with match times on that week when it happens (and we have some time to discuss how it'll affect - this can sometimes become a bit complicated).

I also noticed going back and forth in some posts, what becomes to Official HGL match time during Season 4 Playoffs.

While it may seem a bit contradictory from some point of view, I think it's fine to keep the same match time during Playoffs as well. So official match time for Season 4 Playoffs is your local equivalent of 13.30 EET, a.k.a. 01.30PM EET.

This is the same time that you should see your HGL matches have been taking place, when you look at your HGL schedule. (Yes, I just noticed there's some contradiction with the HGL rules, but let's go with this time 13.30 EET for now).


Anyway, match organizing process for First Round of Playoffs has started, so home teams, please proceed sending challenges if you don't find any mistakes in league table/ORSR-table.
All the care has been taken to ensure it's correct, but it doesn't harm everyone to scan it for totally obvious mistakes.

Please remember to send your match links (for Playoff-matches) to your teams' own box score post. You may also in addition send it to Scores-Thread, if you want.

PO Round 1 (teams ranked 5th-12th; 8 play): Sunday, March 22nd, 2026
Rank #5 VIV vs. #12 VDT (138673698)
Rank #6 ED vs. #11 MAD (138676517)
Rank #7 BCR vs. #10 WMO (138673971)
Rank #8 EOS vs. #9 WAG (138674192)


(Attention: all playoff matches organized every single week.
All playoff matches are played on home/away court only !)

Last edited by Wagner at 3/22/2026 7:29:03 AM