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As you've all noticed, we have the same lineup of 18 teams on our HGL roster on Season 5 as there were on Season 4.

Some of the teams were (at least possibly) interested to join already to Season 5, yet decision was made to restrict the amount of work that's needed to make this league work and keep the level of the work at the usual level (including being able to maintain team stats, etc.), and in that sense there's no relief on my part.

So, while this is not urgent by any means right now, I already wanted to share one possible scenario (below) on possibly enabling new teams to join HGL should there not be any teams "voluntarily"/by their own decision leaving HGL at the end of the Season X (automatically freeing up space for new teams).

This solution has been presented in one form already earlier and is far from optimal, but I'll present it as probably the best solution, chosen from the list of of options of which no one is perfect.

I think, if we'd proceed into this, that voting on it might be needed (if change would/should occur or not), and it needs to be decided how large chunk of the votes need to be "positive for change" in order for change to take place.


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So, as I've mentioned several times (I believe) on many posts, participating/relegated teams-situation (if applied in the forthcoming Season(s) could be handled like this:

1. Interested teams (teams willing to participate to HGL on next Season would participate in very short (maximum one match against each other) HGL Participation League/Promotion League/ HGL Play-In League (HGLPL, HGL-PIL, or something like that).

Other option, if there are 2, 4, or 8 interested teams, would be to make worst team (in top8-salaries) face best team, and so on, and make this a Playoff-format, and approach as usual (mentioned below). This, on the other hand, would be bad in terms of continuation, as this only works with even number of teams. Of course combined option would also be possible (Round Robin and Playoffs for even number of best teams of Round Robin league), but it'd probably be unnecessary many matches to decide often times the somewhat obvious result.

2. Then from that, the best team of HGLPL (or HGL-PIL) would face worst team of HGL in a single Promotion/Relegation match, which would decide which team will play in HGL next Season.

This way there would be way for someone to enter HGL, but they would need to simultaneously prove they're better than currently the worst team in HGL, which would be only logical "requirement" - many IRL leagues work like this too (even though in even more IRL cases one will be relegated directly/without relegation matches, and the second worst of the main league will have to go through relegation match-stage to see if they will be able to remain on top league next season as well). However, as I'm feeling uneasy/mostly reluctant to relegate (in this case, kick them to next Seasons's HGLPL instead of HGL) any of the current, committed teams, I'd prefer to keep the amount of relegated teams as low as ever possible.

************


Again, if anyone is wondering, no such decisions (of possible relegation possibility in the future) have not been made, nor have we even decided if voting about it will open.


This change, I think, would be so dramatic though, that it probably shouldn't be implemented in a middle of any Season, just like demars (Elan Demars) earlier said.

Therefore if such proposition would be for instance voted and accepted, it would only apply to Season 6 (and beyond, if so decided later), in other words making it possible for teams to join on Season 7 if they can beat the worst team of Season 6 (based on Official Regular Season Rankings).

Like I wrote, this is not something that needs to be decided or even discussed now/in a rush, but I already wanted to continue the discussion that was briefly started at least during Season 4 (if not a lot earlier).

It's a wide question, and needs to be given lots of consideration.

Meaning also, that in one given max. 4000 character reply it's not possible to easily handle all sides and aspects of it, so everybody please consider that when reading my replies.

I'll quickly mention couple of things though, and hopefully can hold all the strings at the correct order in my mind while doing so (thinking/considering all aspects of the whole issue simultaneously) so that there wouldn't be critical thinking errors in my logic (in this reply).

My points/thoughts now:

1. Likely 18 would be the cap, while this hasn't been totally decided. Like mentioned, even a change that seems on paper marginal (from 18 to 20) it does already add the match amount and work load.

2. At 18 teams we are on the verge of having too little amount of teams entering Playoffs each year. If change would occur (20 teams instead of 18), then it'd probably be necessary to consider changing the amount of teams entering to Playoffs at least ever so slightly (from 12 to 14), which would likely mean that only two top2-teams would enter Second Round as guaranteed teams (instead of 4). That would, on the other hand, change dynamics in Playoffs to some extent, as weaker teams would be able to enter, so some of the First and Second Round Playoff matches would be "formal" (more or less only theoretical chance for underdog to win).

3. To begin with, I think 1 team movement (relegation/promotion) is something that I'd see as optimal maximum, as otherwise it could have serious negative effect to perfectly committed and fine managers, who would like to continue in HGL; as I said, I feel reluctant to kick anyone out even for one Season (let alone two teams), but this is something to consider (as I mentioned in previous message) to give at least a narrow way for someone new to enter (given that no current teams "give away" their place in HGL voluntarily).

4. As for relegation possibility, I think that's what it should remain: a possibility. Meaning that you wouldn't auto-relegate and nobody would auto-promote (at least as long as we have 1 team that would face relegation threat) by being best team in HGL-PL or worst in HGL. That meaning, that best team of HGL Promotion League (HGL-PL, or something like that) would have to win worst team in HGL in order to be able to play in HGL next Season.
This would also support my worry in above "3.", as only if your current HGL team would be weaker than best HGL-PL team, then you'd be relegated.

5. I think we have "2,5-3 teams" announced of their interest. As for salaries, this bit stronger Aussie team that you mentioned of, and then two clearly weaker teams of which one seems to be more sure about their interest, and another one was more like "maybe/might be interested", if my memory serves me.

So for the sake of example on above "3. and 4.", let's assume that we'd have a system in use that I proposed (in A&B), and let's take three scenarios, in which first
(A) these 3 teams would be interested and in
(B) only two weakest teams would be interested to join, and in
(C) auto relegation would be in use.

A) (likely) Aussie team would be best of HGL-PL, and would face somewhat similar top8-salaries in HGL promotion/relegation final match; winner of match would play in HGL next Season. Sounds maybe decent enough to me.

B) either one of two weakest teams would be crowned winner of HGL-PL and would face worst HGL team that's way higher in top8-salaries, and HGL team would likely win that HGL promotion/relegation final match, and would remain in HGL for next Season. Sounds fair to me.

C) either one of two weakest teams would be crowned winner of HGL-PL and would auto promote, even though they are way weaker than worst current HGL team, and current HGL team would be relegated nevertheless without given a chance (match) to defend their place in HGL. This is something I really wouldn't want to see.

I am glad to see that you have put time and effort into this dilemma, Wagner. Having a former Aussie team-mate, Tassie Devils keen to join the HGL (reinforced only days ago in a bbmail), means that I am keen to see how we can address this issue.

Having read everything you have noted above, Wagner, I would propose something slightly different but still within your proposal. However, my proposal is based on the answer to this question: is 18 teams optimal or is 20 possible as a final cap for number of teams competing in the HGL?

My following proposal incorporates what you have outlined above with a small change that I think will also address the 'dramatic' impact you correctly highlighted would occur if we implemented your system immediately.

My Proposal:

1. We expand the HGL to 20 teams prior to the start of next season, Season 6 and cap it at 20. That is, the HGL will never have more than 20 teams ever going forward. If this isn't optimal, then 18 remains the cap.

See, TBH actually 16 would be way more optimal number of teams instead of 18, let alone 20. Compared to 16, there is now:
A) added workload (more teams to manage but especially more RS matches)
B) we have to play RS on 2 Sundays as well (20 teams would force 2 more RS Rounds, right, so on 4 Sundays=four 3 game weeks=way too much already?!?)
C) makes amount of teams reaching Playoffs slightly more non-optimal to my liking (vs. on 16 teams league).

However, please note that while I'd see 16 more suitable in almost all ways, I'm not currently driving a change to 16 (instead of 18) as there seems to be demand for at least 18 teams.

Please note also, that while nobody has left their withdrawal notice yet, there's no guarantee that, say, 1-4 teams would't do so before the announcement deadline already this Season, which would free up automatically places for new teams even without HGL-PL (or similar), but of course I don't hope that would happen.

[...]
Allowing for 20 teams, essentially adding 2 more teams at the end of this season, will provide everyone (current and future) teams with a fair amount of time to prepare for the upcoming changers to the HGL in Season 7. It will also allow for 2 teams to enter as, unless I am mistaken, we only have 2 teams ready to join?

2. We make an announcement (ensure everyone knows) sometime this season that a PIL will take effect prior to the start of Season 7 and that 2* teams will be relegated to be replaced by 2 new teams.

3. Prior to the start of Season 7, all teams wishing to join the HGL (whether previous members or otherwise) need to compete in the PIL to secure one of 2 spots. That is, 2 teams will be 'relegated' from the HGL at the end of Season 6, and 2 new teams (best performers of the PIL) will enter.

As for announcing things early, I'm in the same boat with you (and demars, and probably with most of us).

I wouldn't prefer to make an announcement in a middle of Season, that 'oh please note that if you're at the bottom 2 this Season, you're going to be relegated'. So just as also demars and yourself mentioned, it's good to inform managers beforehand, and that's why I started this conversation this early, and also mentioned the same sort of schedule for possible entering for new teams in my previous messages (earliest on Season 7 there could be possibility to enter through promotion/relegation match).

Again, as mentioned in my previous message, I don't think it would be fair though to "kick out"committed HGL managers who comply with all the rules, and could be even stronger than HGL Promotion League-teams, by the means of auto-relegation (without the chance to defend their place in HGL promotion/relegation final match).

In this case, all potentially new HGL teams could check out the salary-posts of HGL, to see at what stage their team is in in terms of winning worst HGL team.

MrJ wrote:

Finally, just to throw an additional thought out there - what if the bottom teams of the HGL at the end of the RS were to compete in a cross-over relegation match, similar to the BB structure we are all familiar with? That is, (if we assume 20 teams played in the season) the team that finished 17th plays the team that finished 20th, and the 18th plays the 19th. One game only to minimise extra PU tokens used. The 2 teams losing these releagtion matches are those that relegate that season.[...].
* Can be 1 spot if 2 is too many.

Wagner wrote:

[...]
As for your suggestion of possible relegation Playoffs, I think if that'd be implemented, then there'd need to be:
A) better ORSR ranking receives home advantage, and
B) add one more layer to relegation round; see current English Football League (EFL) promotion scene applied to HGL relegation.

To quote you and me above, what becomes to discussion on which teams should be included when thinking of HGL teams being in relegation risk, I added some thoughts here. All of these depend on/require a scenario that relegation would become part of HGL in the future:

1. Personally, at least initially this is my thought, I'd prefer having clear ORSR-based determination of team(s) that face a relegation risk. In other words, ORSR would determine directly which teams would be HGL relegation candidates, and no relegation Playoffs among HGL teams would be played.

2. If relegation Playoffs among HGL teams would be played though (like in your quoted thought/proposition above), then I'd find it better to add smaller number of teams to relegation Playoffs.
So not 4 teams (teams ranked 15th to 18th in RS), but only 2 teams (17th and 18th), from which match loser would be forced to play against best HGL Promotion League team.

3. If on the other hand relegation Playoffs within HGL teams would take place and affect 4 last teams (like in your proposal/thought), then like I mentioned, I think it should be boiled down to only 1 team that would have to face best team of HGL-PL. So in this case, scenario that you proposed, but then losers of the match would also play a relegation final among HGL teams, and then would proceed to actual relegation final (as mentioned on above "2.").
(Or if in a scenario, that I wouldn't prefer to see, we'd drop 1 worst out of HGL directly and 1 (second worst of HGL on that Season) would have to play a relegation final with second best HGL-PL team, then loser of my proposition at "3." (relegation final among HGL teams) would be directly relegated, and then winner of that "relegation final among HGL teams" would need to face second best HGL-PL team to determine participant for HGL for the next Season.


In EFL (English Football League) they use promotion playoffs, where for instance teams ranked 3rd to 6th play against each other first, and then winners proceed to a promotion final; so from 4 teams 1 team gets a place for higher level league for the next season. Personally I like that system a lot (though if my memory serves me, the promotion final takes place on neutral court, so that part would need to be considered from the HGL standpoint should this system be used).

I mentioned that EFL in my above, quoted message. EFL promotion scenario could be implemented for HGL relegation scenario in the way that I presented earlier in this message, so that loser(s) of (each) relegation round (or preferably only maximum of one round, between two worst HGL teams) would have to face best HGL Promotion League team.

Having said that, with the risk of repeat, I'd initially prefer using ORSR to determine who would be at the risk of relegation in HGL that Season. It would also diminish the effect of critical injuries at the inconvenient times of the Season, compared to situation where stronger (deservng) team would be relegated due to injury during relegation Playoffs.

Last edited by Wagner at 5/10/2026 10:56:30 AM

I agree with almost everything you noted, Wagner. To sum it up, it could look like this:

At the end of the HGL RS, the 2 lowest teams on the ladder would play a relegation match. The winner would stay in the HGL, the loser would then compete against the winner of the HGLPL (HGL Promotion League).

The HGLPL
All teams wishing to earn a position in the upcoming HGL season must compete against the other like-minded teams in a HGLPL. The structure of this would depend on the number of teams wishing to join the HGL. The winner of the HGLPL will earn a chance to join the HGL by competing against the loser of the relegation match. It is one game. The winner competes in the HGL the following season; and the loser must wait until the following season to try again.

Simple. Tidy.

Thank you for your message MrJ!

If we choose Playoff-format to decide which HGL teams are in a risk of relegation, I think that's good condensation what you wrote.

It is still undecided if Playoff format would be best, or if it's best to simply only subject last (worst) team in HGL to a relegation threat (if they lose HGL Promotion/Relegation Final against HGL-PL winner).

If we choose Playoff-format, then I think it's necessary to give better (ORSR-)ranked team a home advantage for that match (played among two worst HGL teams).

As for the home advantage/neutral court-decision in actual match (Promotion/Relegation Final, HGL-PRF) that would decide who's going to play in HGL next Season, it leaves to be decided if this should take place in neutral court or at the home court of better (defending team, in other words current HGL) team. IRL leagues these practices vary, but in many (/most?) cases better team does have the home advantage in the match series (which in this case would be only 1 match). My initial thought is that probably current ("defending") HGL team should be given home court advantage.

Choosing Playoff format would have pros and cons. To mention few (not an exhaustive listing) here:
Pros:
- excitement (or anxiety?) stays longer during RS, in terms of who has secured their place for next HGL Season without participating in Relegation Playoffs (HGL-RP). This could make teams to try even more in the "seemingly not so important" matches at the end of RS (if they have lost chance to place in Playoffs and secured their place in HGL for next Season already).

Cons:
- critical injuries could play too big of a part in who's going to be subjected to relegation threat, if it happens just before/during Relegation Playoffs, for example to a strongest of all teams, who would be then relegated practically due to an injury.
Injuries can of course happen throughout a Season, but their effect (luck factor vs. other teams) is more stabilized, as most teams experience injuries during long Season, that affect their teams (hopefully) somewhat equally - this wouldn't be the case if critical injury would happen during/just before Relegation Final(s).
To open my thoughts a bit more about this, I can tolerate better the effect of injuries in a scenario when team is trying to promote, and would fail to do so because of a critical injury; in the case of relegation though, I'd like to try to take away "the luck factor" as much as possible because team would then be "kicked out" of HGL and I wouldn't like to do that for teams that simply have been very unlucky (here in this case, in terms of injuries).
In other words, I want to try to 'shield' teams from a major disappointed (due to simply bad luck) more than anything.
That's one of the reasons why I'd personally prefer subjecting only worst team in HGL (based on Season end ORSR-rankings) to HGL Relegation/Promotion Final (HGL-RPF).

Having said that, both options (worst team only, based on ORSR-rankings subjected to relegation threat VS. HGL Relegation Playoffs among two teams to decide which one of teams is subjected to relegation threat) do have their pros&cons.

Last edited by Wagner at 5/11/2026 8:29:29 AM

@all, info regarding Season 4 HGL team statistics-posts:
During my regular HGL team stats-maintenance work I noticed one problem/mistake that affects HGL Season 4 Team Stats to a small extent.

For one reason or another, I have unfortunately forgot to add ED (Elan Demars) offensive and defensive stats for RS Round 17 on Season 4.

Sorry for this mistake.
All other teams remain unaffected as for Season 4 HGL Team Stats, but if you view Season 4 HGL Team Stats remember that this issue still affects ED's team stats.

This means, in addition to RS Round 17 results not affecting ED's statistics (make statistics worse or better than they now appear, depending on how well they fared in RS R17 match) at all, make ED's "average" statistics appear lower than they are.

Why is this?
Because let's for example they've taken xx amount of rebounds during Season 4. Now this amount is being divided by 17, and they have only 16 entries in their statistics.
This means this kind of "average values" do currently show lower number for ED only than they ought to. Effectiveness numbers (shooting percentages and such) are not quite that strongly affected though, but they still are (as 17th RS game is not currently in ED's statistics).

It will be (likely way) more than an hour that it will/would take to correct this simple, small and stupid mistake (that ruins them from being perfectly correct), so I'll have to see when it'd prove to be proper/better time to do that. For now, I've already spent hours today in order to be even able to start gathering HGL Season 5 Team Stats for us, so the day is not today for sure.
There's always more work than what is seen from the surface.

Last edited by Wagner at 5/11/2026 8:25:10 AM

Wagner wrote:
[...]
As for the home advantage/neutral court-decision in actual match (Promotion/Relegation Final, HGL-PRF) that would decide who's going to play in HGL next Season, it leaves to be decided if this should take place in neutral court or at the home court of better (defending team, in other words current HGL) team. IRL leagues these practices vary, but in many (/most?) cases better team does have the home advantage in the match series (which in this case would be only 1 match). My initial thought is that probably current ("defending") HGL team should be given home court advantage.
[...]

To quote myself above, and continue discussion a bit further on this small subject:

Defending (playing on a higher level) team having a home court advantage also in actual HGL-RPF (HGL Relegation/Promotion Final) would also follow the rule currently in use in HGL: "better ranked team always does get the home court advantage in Playoffs".

Therefore, it could be reasoned that HGL team as a defending team, playing in highest level possible-league, is always considered better team (in that sense), regardless of top8-salaries of teams.

Then, if HGL-PL (HGL Promotion League) winner would be able to overcome the obstacle of winning the worst team of HGL on an away court, then I guess it could be said that they've definitely deserved their place in HGL.

Having said that I'm still open for discussion about this home court advantage in the HGL-RPF.
But I'm not ashamed to admit that my first interest is to protect current, committed HGL teams that do follow all the rules and procedures, and simultaneously ((but in the priority list after the previously mentioned priority; "the best interests" (for the lack of better expression here) of current HGL teams)) allowing also new teams to enter HGL in a controlled manner (like in IRL leagues is the case as well, so this would mimic those IRL league procedures quite well).

Even myself (as you all know, I feel very reluctant doing so to begin with!) would probably be able to say "bye" (for one Season at least) a little bit easier for the Seasons' worst HGL team, if current HGL team would've given a home court advantage and still would lose the HGL-RPF (HGL Relegation/Promotion Final).
((Then in that case, in boxing terms, it could quite easily be announced as being "unanimous decision", when defending (current HGL-)team has lost on his home court)).

Of course these kind of relegation scenarios could also lead to a situation, where my team would be relegated, which would bring us to another "interesting" situation.


Last edited by Wagner at 5/11/2026 11:38:15 AM

[...]
The HGLPL
All teams wishing to earn a position in the upcoming HGL season must compete against the other like-minded teams in a HGLPL. The structure of this would depend on the number of teams wishing to join the HGL.
[...]

As for the HGL-PL (HGL Promotion League) league format, yes, that's still up for discussion, and like you mentioned, the amount of participating teams would also be one decisive factor.

Using Round Robin (everybody plays everybody once, like in HGL Regular Season) for HGL-PL:

Pros:
- we would have a possibility to create a similar ORSR-listing at the end of HGL-PL, as we do in HGL.
This would enable us to rank teams participating to HGL-PL exactly based on their success in that Season's league, in order to be able to give teams clear participation preference in the case some of the (then) current HGL teams would decide to leave HGL with a short notice (after first being committed for the next Season). This could not so easily be made with a Playoff-format.

- it would be totally fair to all, because all would face each opponent once on neutral court. (In Playoff-method we'd have to find "artificial" means to match teams against each other, such as top8-salaries, and make a decision on home court advantages).



Cons:
- if number of teams (interested in HGL participation) is large enough, we would end up having too many HGL-PL games to my preference. The idea with HGL-PL is not and will never be to create a sub-division to HGL, but to decide HGL-RPF (HGL Relegation/Promotion Final) participant with as little amount of matches as meaningfully possible (and attempting to simultaneously minimize amount of matches but make it as equal and fair to all as possible; therefore change of formats from Season to Season might be necessary if remarkably different amount of teams would be interested in participating).



Possibly neutral/needs to be discussed/decided-type of issues/things:
- Home court advantage; for Round Robin type of series it's kind of clear to have neutral courts on all matches, but in Playoff-type of series, it would follow HGL Playoff logic/rules to have better team having a home court advantage.

- Theoretically it's also possible to mix these two methods, but I don't know if that's the way we should go (probably not). Here's few examples though:
Example 1: We have large number of teams (5 or 7) interested in HGL participation. We could first arrange "pre-playoffs" to reduce the number of teams to, say, 4, and give them entry to Round Robin type of HGL-PL (which would reduce total number of HGL-PL matches).
In the case if there would be for example 7 interested teams, we could give best team (in top8-salaries) an automatic place to HGL-PL, and then 6 worse teams would play one "HGL-PL pre-playoff" match against each other (2nd vs 7th in top8-salaries, and so on), and winners would get to proceed to the actual HGL-PL of that Season, creating a 4 team lineup for HGL-PL on that Season (in which schedule includes way less matches than in the case of 7 teams).

Example 2: We could first play Round Robin in HGL-PL, and then among best two teams play a HGL-PL Final, to decide who will get to participate in HGL Relegation/Promotion Final. While finals are nice and all, I don't think in this case (in Example 2) it would be meaningful to mix these two methods, as ORSR-rankings from Round Robin already provide a simple and clear result (that should be respected as is).

Example 3: We would have 5 interested participants. We could first play "a pre-playoff" match between 2 worst interested teams (top8-salary), and winner would proceed to actual HGL-PL (consisting of 4 teams)

Example of possible Playoff-system utilization:
Example 4: We would have 5 interested participants. Best team (top8) would be given automatic place in HGL-PL Final, and other 4 would play 2 rounds of playoffs to decide another finalist.

Last edited by Wagner at 5/11/2026 9:57:32 AM

Well, I think that a 2 pts bonus for your (unbearable) fault would be a good compromise.
What do think about it ?