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hey, since when is my team changed into acidje? Angi was coaching me !!! ;þ

I'm at 100000% agree with the 2 messages of Revo, It's a wonderfull idea but when a manager has a player which is in the U-21 database ---> DON'T TOUCH !!! ^^

A manager in d4/d3 can be a noob in BB but can have a potential talented U-21 oplayer, so the OTYBP (Organisation for the Training of Young Belgian Players) give him some advices to train the player AND to evoluate in BB

Sum

If someone with an NT or U21 talent ask us for help you can not ask us to leave him alone.
What you can do is tell us about it and we will help him aswell but then your OTYBP program does the training and we will do the rest but then you must play open card aswell

FoD

I'm at 100000% agree with the 2 messages of Revo, It's a wonderfull idea but when a manager has a player which is in the U-21 database ---> DON'T TOUCH !!! ^^

A manager in d4/d3 can be a noob in BB but can have a potential talented U-21 oplayer, so the OTYBP (Organisation for the Training of Young Belgian Players) give him some advices to train the player AND to evoluate in BB

Sum

If someone with an NT or U21 talent ask us for help you can not ask us to leave him alone.
What you can do is tell us about it and we will help him aswell but then your OTYBP program does the training and we will do the rest but then you must play open card aswell

FoD

ok guy's, lets make things easy.

we all know that some of the guy's from the U21 or NT staff are going to help out.

So if FoD can post a list, then Sum can check if their aren't any talents in those teams. if that happenes, then one of the people of the U21/NT team, who help out Sum/Joe (or whoever would be U21/NT coach in the futur) will take over the advising of that manager, and thus, all problems solved.

then Sum/Joe is sure that they are being helped by people who they have selected as their staff to help them out, and then the coach himself is getting help aswell.

but what must avoid at all costs, is that someone gets 2 different coaches as the same time. each coach has his own way of training, his own way of training and learning others tactics, and we don't want any manager to get confused, because the U21/Nt staff member tells him something else than his other coach. no one will benifit from 2 coaches saying other stuff. so that is something that we'll need to prevent at all costs!

their are plural solutions for it.

1) you creat an external forum where the U21/NT mamager can follow very well what is going on, who is coaching who (not a fan of that idea, since it's already hard enough to get people to come to the BB forums, so how on earth do you expect to get them to check a external forum regulary?)

2) FoD posts a list of people and their coaches as he is doing now. if Sum see's that someone is being coached, who has a trainee, then his coach will be replaced ASAP by a U21/NT member. then all Sum has to do, is to say how he would like the guy to be trained, and then the U21/NT guy can explain that person how to train, and thus monitor the player and at the same time explain him how BB works ( thats a big bonus for that manager !)

you can argue with me that all managers deserve a U21/NT coach, but set aside from the fact, that it would mean that the U21/NT would need alot more staffmembers to forfill that job, you'd also need to explain those guy's what is expected form them as a U21/NT staff member, that takes time to get used to, and in the meanwhile, your managers aren't getting any help.

3) you let Sum/Joe ( or whoever will replace him as U21 coach/ NT coach) decided on who will teach who (appoint the mentors), but that will mean that the U21/Nt coach will have even more work to do, and they've got enough work as such to follow up all the players, to see where they get transfered, contacting the mangers and so on...

their are many other options, but those are the most logical ones ( might have missed one though)

if we get in the way of the U21 and their staff, our NT won't progress, cause they usually recrute from the U21. and U21 and NT are also a way to show the others of who can train his players better than others, and who has got the best players... (both the U21 and the NT are doing rather well. the U21 went 8-0, the Nt just missed qualifying for the next round, but they faced alot of bad luck aswell).

(sequel in post 2 :p)

personally, i think option 2 is the easiest one to achieve, so let's go by that. then everything is easely resolved. their are plural reasons why the U21 staff don't put on the forum who is a prospect and in which team he is. and this said, if we learn new managers how to play and train players, the U21/NT staff will benefit from it aswell since they new guy's will know how to train players. but we have to avoid confusing players by giving them 2 coaches, since then the U21 won't see their prospects trained, and the manager himself will be so confused, that he doesn't know what he is doing.

so whatever is decided, we should keep in mind not to confuse anyone, since that won't benefit anyone. i'd suggest that we talk this over this evening in the belgian chatroom, and work out the details their.

cause for the mentor program, their are alot of things that should still be filled in. such as, are we going to teach everyone a basic thing? or is every menton free to decided how far she/he is going to learn things to the guy in question? you can say that you should answer the questions of a guy, but if you only answer what he askes, then their will be ton of thigns that he doesn't know because he didn't read them yet... and learning someone how BB works from scratch, is not very easy either + most of us learn a minimum from the texts available.

their you got my thoughs on this.

the easiest way to do thing, is to hav Sum and FoD to chat (+ a 3rd person ( like LoD i'd say) to ensure that their convo is a productive one. cause if you chat just with 2 persons, and they got another vision, then usually, they end up quarreling anyhow, and that doesn't benefit either of us. and having the community being split between the trainers and the U21/NT staff, that isn't really gonna help things either.)

Rev

to me it is still crystal clear. They ARE two very diffrent things.

The thing that troubles me right now is that there seems to be a (large) negative reaction from the NT-people. I can't help but feel that they act selfish here.

Training a youngster, or even a regular for the NT means you are sacrificing (part) of your BB-team, for the benefit of the NT.
I think it is only fair that those people doing this also realise that, and have the choice to do this or not.
If they do, I don't think they will ask for coaching-assistance, as they already get people who direct them, and tell them how to train.

If people react on this training-program that will be because they (are not happy with their situation and) want to improve their team.
If they choose for this option it is unlikely they will be able to train a NT player to his full potential...

It is clearly 2 very diffrent things, and no matter how much rope-pulling will be going on in here, or anywhere else, it will be the managers themselves that should decide which way they want to take with their team.
There is NO way anyone can justify keeping a manager in ignorance to benefit the NT. BB-team managers should get as much info as possible about their choices, so they can choose what they will find the most enjoyable to play this game.

Everyone has the right to manage only 1 team. It will not suit anyone to trick someone else into doing things for the benefit of an other team, not even any NT team, without informing that person of the consequenses.
If I ever find out someone is unhappy, or maybe even quits the game because he was doing something he wasn't realy aware of because someone else wispered in his ear to trick him into doing things he wouldn'd do when he was better informed, I will get very very mad.

The ONLY thing NT people can do is ASK the manager if he is interested in training an NT player. I think it is even possible to have a manager getting coached, and getting NT help at the same time, because it will be the manager himself making the end-decision how to manage his team in it's totallity.

I hope this is clear to everyone?


In short:
IT'S ONLY THE MANAGER OF THE TEAM THAT WILL DECIDE WHICH KIND OF HELP HE WILL REQUEST, and as such there is absolutely no problem of both existing simultaniously, EVEN if that means we loose some potentially very good NT players. It's not up to us to decide what the owner does with them, it's totally up to them.

Let me stress here that I do not favor any of both sides here. The only thing I am interested in is that the (new) managers are being helped in their best interest, and can enjoy this game as much as possible.

If someone doesn't agree here, I'd like to hear his/her opinion, and reasoning.

Editted for typo's and wording.

Last edited by Lord of Doom at 2/16/2010 10:34:25 AM

In the Netherlands we got the BB-Buddy system (meaning newbies get a experiences buddy if they want to), and if they have a great prospect than we sent the manager and his BB-Buddy some training advice. It's working fine, managers wo get a buddy are less likely to leave the system, which means less players gone lost. From a NT/U21 point of view there are more pro's than contra's. At least that is my experience.

to me it is still crystal clear. They ARE two very diffrent things.

The thing that troubles me right now is that there seems to be a (large) negative reaction from the NT-people. I can't help but feel that they act selfish here.

...

It is clearly 2 very diffrent things, and no matter how much rope-pulling will be going on in here, or anywhere else, it will be the managers themselves that should decide which way they want to take with their team.
There is NO way anyone can justify keeping a manager in ignorance to benefit the NT. BB-team managers should get as much info as possible about their choices, so they can choose what they will find the most enjoyable to play this game.

euhm, as far as i am aware of, this isn't the case at this particular moment. the guy who i am helping out ( other than guyoo, who i'll start helping as soon as i got a good way to communicate with him, and learn him a few things, taking steps slowly, one by one) is aware of his options, and is training another player aswell, for his own purpose. but i do agree on the oppinion that they should know that their is something else to train aswell. they shouldn't be forced to train for the Nt what so ever (and as far as i recall, i haven't wrote anything that would suggest this)

Everyone has the right to manage only 1 team. It will not suit anyone to trick someone else into doing things for the benefit of an other team, not even any NT team, without informing that person of the consequenses.
If I ever find out someone is unhappy, or maybe even quits the game because he was doing something he wasn't realy aware of because someone else wispered in his ear to trick him into doing things he wouldn'd do when he was better informed, I will get very very mad.

The ONLY thing NT people can do is ASK the manager if he is interested in training an NT player. I think it is even possible to have a manager getting coached, and getting NT help at the same time, because it will be the manager himself making the end-decision how to manage his team in it's totallity.

I hope this is clear to everyone?


In short:
IT'S ONLY THE MANAGER OF THE TEAM THAT WILL DECIDE WHICH KIND OF HELP HE WILL REQUEST, and as such there is absolutely no problem of both existing simultaniously, EVEN if that means we loose some potentially very good NT players. It's not up to us to decide what the owner does with them, it's totally up to them.

Let me stress here that I do not favor any of both sides here. The only thing I am interested in is that the (new) managers are being helped in their best interest, and can enjoy this game as much as possible.

If someone doesn't agree here, I'd like to hear his/her opinion, and reasoning.

nothing to add here.


Rev

ps: by communication, i mean a way of chatting, interacting with the guy.

Last edited by AthrunZala at 2/16/2010 11:09:42 AM

OK

First of all it's not my goal to get in the way of our NT/U21 and it will never be also.

Second if a manager asks me if I can give him a coach I will do that and I will ask him from now on if he has an NT/U21 talent aswell if he does I will ask him then if it's his goal to train his talent for our NT/U21 (if he does I will send him to Sum of Joe then for help) but if he's telling me that his main goal is to get a better all-round team I will give him the coach he's asking me. If he has a talent we as coaches will take that in mind on the help we will giving him.

Now for all the rest it's just on how we will communicate we can do a lot trhu the fora etc. but on chat it's also a good way to get information (skype/msn/yahoo etc.).

And for the last thing it's not we don't agree on 1 thing Sum that I don't think you don't do a good job with the U21 your work is great I don't have the time for it and don't want that job also so keep up your job

In short:
IT'S ONLY THE MANAGER OF THE TEAM THAT WILL DECIDE WHICH KIND OF HELP HE WILL REQUEST, and as such there is absolutely no problem of both existing simultaniously, EVEN if that means we loose some potentially very good NT players. It's not up to us to decide what the owner does with them, it's totally up to them.

I had not the time to react earlier... but this is exactly what i would have answered (and LoD did it even in better words :p).
We already had managers with marvelous youngsters, who made the decission not to train them, but did choose for teamtraining! At the end: the owner is 'heer en meester' (translation: lord and master?) of his team and he will make the final decission... and everyone will and has to respect his choice!

We only can make clear to the managers that they have a youngster with a great future if he's well trained... and if the manager is interested give him advise for the best training and doing the folow up...

We only can make clear to the managers that they have a youngster with a great future if he's well trained... and if the manager is interested give him advise for the best training and doing the folow up...

exactly.

inform the manager about the options. Inform him he can get a general coach, who will help him with his team. If he has a prospect, inform him he has, and that he can opt to go for the NT player, in which case the project of Sum kicks in if he opts to train the player. Inform him if he doesn't want to focus on 1 player training he could sell the guy and get 1.5 or maybe 2 guys for the money, which he can use for his team improvement, or hold on to the player if he chooses so.

inform inform inform. But let them do the choosing, and don't try to manipulate their choices in any way, unless they would make a clearly bad choice for their team...