BuzzerBeater Forums

personally, i think option 2 is the easiest one to achieve, so let's go by that. then everything is easely resolved. their are plural reasons why the U21 staff don't put on the forum who is a prospect and in which team he is. and this said, if we learn new managers how to play and train players, the U21/NT staff will benefit from it aswell since they new guy's will know how to train players. but we have to avoid confusing players by giving them 2 coaches, since then the U21 won't see their prospects trained, and the manager himself will be so confused, that he doesn't know what he is doing.

so whatever is decided, we should keep in mind not to confuse anyone, since that won't benefit anyone. i'd suggest that we talk this over this evening in the belgian chatroom, and work out the details their.

cause for the mentor program, their are alot of things that should still be filled in. such as, are we going to teach everyone a basic thing? or is every menton free to decided how far she/he is going to learn things to the guy in question? you can say that you should answer the questions of a guy, but if you only answer what he askes, then their will be ton of thigns that he doesn't know because he didn't read them yet... and learning someone how BB works from scratch, is not very easy either + most of us learn a minimum from the texts available.

their you got my thoughs on this.

the easiest way to do thing, is to hav Sum and FoD to chat (+ a 3rd person ( like LoD i'd say) to ensure that their convo is a productive one. cause if you chat just with 2 persons, and they got another vision, then usually, they end up quarreling anyhow, and that doesn't benefit either of us. and having the community being split between the trainers and the U21/NT staff, that isn't really gonna help things either.)

Rev

to me it is still crystal clear. They ARE two very diffrent things.

The thing that troubles me right now is that there seems to be a (large) negative reaction from the NT-people. I can't help but feel that they act selfish here.

Training a youngster, or even a regular for the NT means you are sacrificing (part) of your BB-team, for the benefit of the NT.
I think it is only fair that those people doing this also realise that, and have the choice to do this or not.
If they do, I don't think they will ask for coaching-assistance, as they already get people who direct them, and tell them how to train.

If people react on this training-program that will be because they (are not happy with their situation and) want to improve their team.
If they choose for this option it is unlikely they will be able to train a NT player to his full potential...

It is clearly 2 very diffrent things, and no matter how much rope-pulling will be going on in here, or anywhere else, it will be the managers themselves that should decide which way they want to take with their team.
There is NO way anyone can justify keeping a manager in ignorance to benefit the NT. BB-team managers should get as much info as possible about their choices, so they can choose what they will find the most enjoyable to play this game.

Everyone has the right to manage only 1 team. It will not suit anyone to trick someone else into doing things for the benefit of an other team, not even any NT team, without informing that person of the consequenses.
If I ever find out someone is unhappy, or maybe even quits the game because he was doing something he wasn't realy aware of because someone else wispered in his ear to trick him into doing things he wouldn'd do when he was better informed, I will get very very mad.

The ONLY thing NT people can do is ASK the manager if he is interested in training an NT player. I think it is even possible to have a manager getting coached, and getting NT help at the same time, because it will be the manager himself making the end-decision how to manage his team in it's totallity.

I hope this is clear to everyone?


In short:
IT'S ONLY THE MANAGER OF THE TEAM THAT WILL DECIDE WHICH KIND OF HELP HE WILL REQUEST, and as such there is absolutely no problem of both existing simultaniously, EVEN if that means we loose some potentially very good NT players. It's not up to us to decide what the owner does with them, it's totally up to them.

Let me stress here that I do not favor any of both sides here. The only thing I am interested in is that the (new) managers are being helped in their best interest, and can enjoy this game as much as possible.

If someone doesn't agree here, I'd like to hear his/her opinion, and reasoning.

Editted for typo's and wording.

Last edited by Lord of Doom at 2/16/2010 10:34:25 AM

In the Netherlands we got the BB-Buddy system (meaning newbies get a experiences buddy if they want to), and if they have a great prospect than we sent the manager and his BB-Buddy some training advice. It's working fine, managers wo get a buddy are less likely to leave the system, which means less players gone lost. From a NT/U21 point of view there are more pro's than contra's. At least that is my experience.

to me it is still crystal clear. They ARE two very diffrent things.

The thing that troubles me right now is that there seems to be a (large) negative reaction from the NT-people. I can't help but feel that they act selfish here.

...

It is clearly 2 very diffrent things, and no matter how much rope-pulling will be going on in here, or anywhere else, it will be the managers themselves that should decide which way they want to take with their team.
There is NO way anyone can justify keeping a manager in ignorance to benefit the NT. BB-team managers should get as much info as possible about their choices, so they can choose what they will find the most enjoyable to play this game.

euhm, as far as i am aware of, this isn't the case at this particular moment. the guy who i am helping out ( other than guyoo, who i'll start helping as soon as i got a good way to communicate with him, and learn him a few things, taking steps slowly, one by one) is aware of his options, and is training another player aswell, for his own purpose. but i do agree on the oppinion that they should know that their is something else to train aswell. they shouldn't be forced to train for the Nt what so ever (and as far as i recall, i haven't wrote anything that would suggest this)

Everyone has the right to manage only 1 team. It will not suit anyone to trick someone else into doing things for the benefit of an other team, not even any NT team, without informing that person of the consequenses.
If I ever find out someone is unhappy, or maybe even quits the game because he was doing something he wasn't realy aware of because someone else wispered in his ear to trick him into doing things he wouldn'd do when he was better informed, I will get very very mad.

The ONLY thing NT people can do is ASK the manager if he is interested in training an NT player. I think it is even possible to have a manager getting coached, and getting NT help at the same time, because it will be the manager himself making the end-decision how to manage his team in it's totallity.

I hope this is clear to everyone?


In short:
IT'S ONLY THE MANAGER OF THE TEAM THAT WILL DECIDE WHICH KIND OF HELP HE WILL REQUEST, and as such there is absolutely no problem of both existing simultaniously, EVEN if that means we loose some potentially very good NT players. It's not up to us to decide what the owner does with them, it's totally up to them.

Let me stress here that I do not favor any of both sides here. The only thing I am interested in is that the (new) managers are being helped in their best interest, and can enjoy this game as much as possible.

If someone doesn't agree here, I'd like to hear his/her opinion, and reasoning.

nothing to add here.


Rev

ps: by communication, i mean a way of chatting, interacting with the guy.

Last edited by AthrunZala at 2/16/2010 11:09:42 AM

OK

First of all it's not my goal to get in the way of our NT/U21 and it will never be also.

Second if a manager asks me if I can give him a coach I will do that and I will ask him from now on if he has an NT/U21 talent aswell if he does I will ask him then if it's his goal to train his talent for our NT/U21 (if he does I will send him to Sum of Joe then for help) but if he's telling me that his main goal is to get a better all-round team I will give him the coach he's asking me. If he has a talent we as coaches will take that in mind on the help we will giving him.

Now for all the rest it's just on how we will communicate we can do a lot trhu the fora etc. but on chat it's also a good way to get information (skype/msn/yahoo etc.).

And for the last thing it's not we don't agree on 1 thing Sum that I don't think you don't do a good job with the U21 your work is great I don't have the time for it and don't want that job also so keep up your job

In short:
IT'S ONLY THE MANAGER OF THE TEAM THAT WILL DECIDE WHICH KIND OF HELP HE WILL REQUEST, and as such there is absolutely no problem of both existing simultaniously, EVEN if that means we loose some potentially very good NT players. It's not up to us to decide what the owner does with them, it's totally up to them.

I had not the time to react earlier... but this is exactly what i would have answered (and LoD did it even in better words :p).
We already had managers with marvelous youngsters, who made the decission not to train them, but did choose for teamtraining! At the end: the owner is 'heer en meester' (translation: lord and master?) of his team and he will make the final decission... and everyone will and has to respect his choice!

We only can make clear to the managers that they have a youngster with a great future if he's well trained... and if the manager is interested give him advise for the best training and doing the folow up...

We only can make clear to the managers that they have a youngster with a great future if he's well trained... and if the manager is interested give him advise for the best training and doing the folow up...

exactly.

inform the manager about the options. Inform him he can get a general coach, who will help him with his team. If he has a prospect, inform him he has, and that he can opt to go for the NT player, in which case the project of Sum kicks in if he opts to train the player. Inform him if he doesn't want to focus on 1 player training he could sell the guy and get 1.5 or maybe 2 guys for the money, which he can use for his team improvement, or hold on to the player if he chooses so.

inform inform inform. But let them do the choosing, and don't try to manipulate their choices in any way, unless they would make a clearly bad choice for their team...

I must have missed it completely then.... where is the problem ?

It looked like there was a problem with the coaching thing comming into the game for Belgium. Or did I get it wrong. Why are we discussing this then?

For me and just to clearthe situation:

The biggest problem in Belgium is that we have around 10 players in the U-21 database by positionwhen they are 18 years old. At the end of the season, 5 where correctly trained (well not correctly, I will just say trained). I'm already happy if 3 players can reach an acceptable level for the U-21 (acceptable is 20k when the player is 21 years old foe a SG and 50k for a C... wow what a miracle).
My biggest fear is that a manager asks also some advices to train his young talentfull player to an other coach and that this coach says "o you know it should be better to train A in place of B and on 2 positions in place of one" ... o yes the second position will train two guys who have more than 26 years old ... yipee!!!!

We have already a lot of problem to lead our team (NT and U-21) because in Belgium nobody want to kill his team for his country. In others lands, if they have Center with 150k as salary when he's 21 years old... it's not to help his team. (in Belgium we don't have even one player with 100k as salary ....)
I don't ask to do that because the first goal of this game is to train his team and not to help my U-21 team or the NT but if you give us some more problem ... I have others things to do than lose 10 hours /weeks (already 3 the saturday morning).

So YES it's a great idea to help the managers who want some help but don't kill the 3 little poor player that I will have to play "motion" in front of the army of shooters who play for my adversary.

The biggest problem in Belgium is that we have around 10 players in the U-21 database by positionwhen they are 18 years old. At the end of the season, 5 where correctly trained (well not correctly, I will just say trained). I'm already happy if 3 players can reach an acceptable level for the U-21 (acceptable is 20k when the player is 21 years old foe a SG and 50k for a C... wow what a miracle).
My biggest fear is that a manager asks also some advices to train his young talentfull player to an other coach and that this coach says "o you know it should be better to train A in place of B and on 2 positions in place of one" ... o yes the second position will train two guys who have more than 26 years old ... yipee!!!!

I will put every manager that ask for help in this thread or a new one like you prefere and if there is 1 in the list that have a possible talent you can tell me about it. I'll make sure the coach he's getting will be notified of it! if We work together we can not have any problem on that fact or am I mistaken?

We have already a lot of problem to lead our team (NT and U-21) because in Belgium nobody want to kill his team for his country. In others lands, if they have Center with 150k as salary when he's 21 years old... it's not to help his team. (in Belgium we don't have even one player with 100k as salary ....)
I don't ask to do that because the first goal of this game is to train his team and not to help my U-21 team or the NT but if you give us some more problem ... I have others things to do than lose 10 hours /weeks (already 3 the saturday morning).

So YES it's a great idea to help the managers who want some help but don't kill the 3 little poor player that I will have to play "motion" in front of the army of shooters who play for my adversary.

That wasn't my goal And it will never be my goal If you tell us that the manager have a possible talent for the U21 then I will make sure that the manager will be noticed about it he will from your way out and he will from the coaches way out. it has to be possible to build a team around a talent aswell and train the talent as good as possible.
We have to look everywhere what we can do to make the belgium leagues stronger and keep the U21 on a high spot in ranking :D