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Last then undecided team, Alanurmon Rikkaat, has decided they´d want to participate to Season 5.

This creates an exceptional situation, when all current managers have decided they'd wish to continue, and our team roster will be 18 teams (at least) for Season 5.

Usually, as you all probably know, usually multiple teams have withdrawn after each Season, putting us in an easy spot in terms of accepting new teams into HGL.

Again, HGL is an all-manual league, and that's why it is necessary to consider so called maximum limits/soft cap for participating teams for each Season. As addition of teams creates considerable amount of more work (in terms of confirming matches, contacting with managers not complying with their HGL duties, updating league tables and team stats), as you can see from table below, it's also good to ponder when it's not wise to exceed the soft cap anymore in terms of participating teams/Season, and if additional teams are added, what kind of "additional value" that provides vs. the amount of additional work required.

So far we have 18 teams and are playing 17 Rounds, that means also on 2 additional Sundays.

If we add any more teams, even one, that would force us to play 19 Rounds, so on 4 additional Sundays.

It's a tricky situation all in all, as:

A) quality is always more important than quantity

B) it'd be nice to welcome all teams without any limitations, but

C) it's necessary to remember that it's an all-manual-league, and for example if we add 2 teams to our 18 teams roster, amount of teams will be 2 so +11,1% but the amount of matches will rise from 153 to 19, which is +24,2%.
Remember, that's the added amount of work, not only in league background tasks, but also in creating HGL team stats, which are already hard to keep up with - I don't think it'd be optimal to possibly be forced to lower league standards just in order to be able to add teams that are not yet in a development stage in where they can compete equally against other HGL teams

D) if 2 very low salary teams would join - and this is not an insult towards anyone - it's extremely likely that their combined record would be 1 win and 37 losses; not exactly much of an added value in terms of creating more exciting matches.
This is not to say those would be totally meaningless matches, but personally I by far prefer games that are at least somewhat even (almost all are like that for myself this season, apart from few exceptions), and others can tend up to be filler-matches. I guess we've all seen what a massive amount of matches (in addition with purposely lost matches - this is luckily not a thing in HGL) does to NBA for instance - so again, quality is far more important than quantity.

So all in all, personally I'd even prefer maximum of 18 teams setup currently (but my opinion is open to change, maybe), and absolute ceiling would be 20 teams in my opinion (otherwise we'd have 21 Rounds at minimum, which is way too much in my opinion - 19 Rounds is already more than I'd personally want to see). Again, this is not a personal attack to any of interested teams (and not possibly my final opinion anyway, FWIW), but I just need to see this thing as a whole and make sure quality is maintained and not sacrificed just for the sake of amount.

Of course, it's not out of question that some team would decide to withdraw from Season 5.

So here's the table how addition of teams changes amount of teams and matches, in amounts and percentages:


TEA RD GM TACvs18(vs.previous) MACvs18(vs.previous)
18 17 153 0.00% (—) 0.00% (—)
19 19 171 5.6% (5.6%) 11.8% (11.8%)
20 19 190 11.1% (5.3%) 24.2% (11.1%)
21 21 210 16.7% (5.00%) 37.3% (10.5%)

TEAMS=teams,
RD=rounds,
GM=games
TACvs18(vs.previous)=Team amount change vs 18, % (% change vs. previous value; for example from 19 to 20 teams the amount of change is +5,3%)
MACvs18(vs.previous)=Match amount change vs 18, % (% change vs previous value)

I agree with your summations and thoughts, Wagner. And, given the amount of work you have put into this league (and continue to do so), I will defer to you on how many teams is enough. In other words, I will support your decision. Obviously, it would be great to have more teams in the HGL; however, as you have noted, quality v quantity is important to consider.

Thank you for your response MrJ, I appreciate it.

As mentioned, it's completely new situation in terms of 0 managers exiting HGL after Season, so on other Seasons it's been simple enough to accept new teams to replace exiting teams.

While this is still theoretically possible that some of us 18 would cancel their commitment to participate to Season 5 ((and therefore it would be easy to take in replacing team(s)), I would end up thinking it's not likely that any of us would decide to exit HGL after Season 4 (cancel their commitment).

Also, it's good to remember that theoretically, nobody "forces" us to play HGL during one BB season, but I kind of prefer it to be it that way, for couple of reasons. (On the other hand, it would also have some benefits to spread HGL Season over 2 BB seasons).



So obviously one option would be to spread HGL Season over 2 BB seasons, and play only 1 match per week during RS and during Playoffs.

There would be some negatives with this, though:

First, at least to me it feels more clear/apparent choice to play one HGL Season during one BB season, also because it's been the tradition since Season 1.

Second, given current BB Pickup match limitations, it's not possible to arrange 2 BB seasons' worth of Regular Season Pickup matches at once. So we'd be in a situation, where we'd have to have 2 RS match organizing windows, second one in a middle of RS, and that always adds to the risk of things not going well/as planned.

Third - and this could be an important point - for some teams that are not doing well, it could feel like a bad design choice, as they would then lose like 6 months of playing time (instead of about 3 months), if their Season goes South and it becomes apparent quite soon that their Playoffs chances would be already diminished.

Of course there would be also other aspects (negative, and maybe some positive also?) within this theoretical change into playing over 2 BB seasons. However, this isn't a planned chance, just a theoretical speculation at this point (into which everyone who feels like it can contribute, if they so feel like).



As for future, it's possible to think of different scenarios in terms of adding new teams, if necessary (keeping in mind the current limitations that I wrote about in my previous post).

If it seems to become "a habit" that everyone currently playing in HGL decides to continue in HGL on next Season as well, then we might (or might not- I'm wrestling with this as to begin with I'd like to offer all current HGL teams possibility to continue, to reward continuous commitment...) have to consider the option to have a short Play-in league or Play-in Playoffs, into which possibly 1-2(?) worst teams during each HGL Season would participate into, just in order to give some teams possibility to join as well. At least at some point, that is, when their team is at least so competitive that they can actually beat worst team(s) in HGL, or at least beat some of each other who are also "applying" to HGL if it's the case that some current HGL managers decide to retire but there would still be less open spots in HGL than there are willing participants.

This would kind of mimic real world situation (relegation battle in leagues), however, with the unfortunate difference that worst teams after Play-in league wouldn't play on next HGL Season. On the other hand it would likely give teams that are not successful in HGL Play-in league even more motivation to train better to be able to acquire a place in HGL by succeeding in HGL Play-in league on next Season.

Hello !

Maybe there could be another mini-league in which the newcomers fight to enter HGL. It could happen during the season or just before the season ending (during the playoffs).

The case where the worst teams could be ejected seems to me unfair. As HomeGrown we surely will know a time where our team will have to re-start, and when we'll have to fire many or some of our players. But we couldn't stay in HGL ?
Ah what a pity !
Maybe I like too much this league, but it would be very sad, for sure.

So, mixing my first idea + this second idea, if we had to make worst tems vs newcomers, we all should be aware before the season. I take an example (because my sentence was really not clear ;)

During S5, all teams know that there are 4 newcomers for S6. In S5, the 4 newcomers play an pre-HGL tournament. The 2 first will take 2 seats in S6. The 2 last in S5 will be "relegated" and they will hve to play a pre-tournament in S6 (to come back in S7 if they win). Managing a small tournement is very easy. The problem is that if there are 8 newcomers, how will we do... ??

Many answers, but more questions... sorry !

Hello !

Maybe there could be another mini-league in which the newcomers fight to enter HGL. It could happen during the season or just before the season ending (during the playoffs).

The case where the worst teams could be ejected seems to me unfair. As HomeGrown we surely will know a time where our team will have to re-start, and when we'll have to fire many or some of our players. But we couldn't stay in HGL ?
Ah what a pity !
Maybe I like too much this league, but it would be very sad, for sure.

So, mixing my first idea + this second idea, if we had to make worst tems vs newcomers, we all should be aware before the season. I take an example (because my sentence was really not clear ;)

During S5, all teams know that there are 4 newcomers for S6. In S5, the 4 newcomers play an pre-HGL tournament. The 2 first will take 2 seats in S6. The 2 last in S5 will be "relegated" and they will hve to play a pre-tournament in S6 (to come back in S7 if they win). Managing a small tournement is very easy. The problem is that if there are 8 newcomers, how will we do... ??
[..]

I completely share your anxiety about "kicking out" current HGL managers by relegation, so much so, that I really try to avoid that scenario if decently possible, but also limitations of all-manual league must be kept in mind.

It's always (at least to me) easier to not accept new requests, than to "kick out" current HGL teams (should there be need to restrict amount of teams playing in given season, just as there likely is on Season 5).

And of course, adding any teams to our roster of 18 teams would force us 2 more additional Rounds during RS, and as you all can conclude from my previous message, it's not preferred by me currently.

And having roster of 20 would again put us into a situation where we could question if 12 teams to Playoffs is enough, and if 12 doesn't seem like enough,
- should that 'major change' (or is it a major change? Opinions likely will differ..) be voted on, and if yes,
- what's the %-amount of votes demanded to enforce the change, and
- it needs to be noted that such changes shouldn't probably be made during that given season when they're supposed to take place, so we would already be in a rush with such voting as well...



I also share your view on that, that we should (at least preferably) know about the possibility of relegation from HGL, before RS has started. The challenge with this is though, than in this case we would have to know the amount of interested teams so to speak '1 season ahead', while in reality most often teams have let us know during the current Season that they'd be interested in participating to next Season.

Of course if it would be a known practice, that let's say that at least worst HGL team is subjected to possibility of relegation, then it wouldn't be an issue through a surprise - it wouldn't erase other negative aspects of it though..



One of the options, which would still give current HGL teams at least a theoretical chance to survive., would be that:

A) newcomers and current HGL teams participate in same "mini-league"/Play-in league

B) newcomers play Play-in league/Play-in Playoffs, and either;
B.1) best of such Playoffs will get place to HGL directly (if there's space and/or current HGL teams would be relegated on that Season), or
B.2) best of such Playoffs will face worst team(s) in HGL in single-elimination match(es), to determine participation rights to next Season

But this doesn't erase the problem, that if any high quality team would decide being interested in participating, they'd win against weakest team in HGL for sure, so chance to not be relegated could be purely theoretical.



This kind of "Play-in/mini-league" during HGL Playoffs has been on HGL rules as well, to potentially solve this situation.

Like you well pointed out; if there are more newcomers than open spots - that's the heart of the dilemma.



Last edited by Wagner at 3/13/2026 6:11:21 AM

Hello !
[..]
The case where the worst teams could be ejected seems to me unfair. As HomeGrown we surely will know a time where our team will have to re-start, and when we'll have to fire many or some of our players. But we couldn't stay in HGL ?
Ah what a pity !
Maybe I like too much this league, but it would be very sad, for sure.
[..]

So one more quick comment on your message. This is not to cancel my earlier message, as I agree with your thoughts and reasoning, but to offer one solution of not being in such a risk of relegation should the possibility to relegate be part of HGL in the future. (Preferably not, as mentioned before).

What I mean is that if you plan your 'team reset/fresh start', at least based on weakest HGL teams rosters on Seasons from 1 to 4, it would be likely that at least no mid-level or higher level teams would be realistically subjected to relegation possibility in reality, as it's not necessary to just throw out all your players at once.

Remember, there's also a minimum salary floor in BB so after certain amount of selling/firing, you wouldn't benefit of having a very cheap roster.

And even if you'd like to "tank" in your "regular BB league", due to what I just mentioned you could even keep those older players in your roster (that wouldn't in best scenario cost you anything, as you'd have to pay for BB minimum salary floor anyway), just to play them in selected games, say, only in HGL games if you'd like to lose as many "regular BB league" games as possible to acquire good drafting position.

So this is just something to keep in mind. Of course it's not an advice/note suited on all situations, but could solve the problem of ending up being truly non-competitive in HGL for some, at least on some seasons.

Point was to say, that you hardly ever fall so hard from being a mid-level team (or possibly even from a lower mid-level team) that you'd end up being the worst team in HGL, unless you knowingly do those choices.

This, of course, doesn't solve the dilemma with my initial willingness to also reward continuous HGL commitment in the case of low top8-salary level teams, which would be in a risk of relegation.

Again, one of those situations, in which if easy/perfect solution would be available, it would've already been implemented...

need to create two leagues:)

Well, just to complicate matters further, I have another team (Aussie!) wishing to join in Season 5. Tassie Devils (38697). He wasn't completely aware of his status as a HG team and neither was I...until yesterday! lol So, I reached out and he has had a quick look at the HGL. With my support, he seems keen for next season.

So, this is both a great sign for the HGL but...as we have been discussing...challenging to accommodate everyone.

Agreed - both good and challenging news simultaneously. Game and work load (governing, keeping up with the HGL stats) is already at a high level, as mentioned before.
As also mentioned before, increase to either of those categories (now 18 teams) wouldn't be positive from my standpoint, so it's a tricky situation.

He seems to have $150K'ish (top8) team in terms of salaries and is very experienced manager, as I had a quick glance of his team. In other words, it would likely be very difficult to reach Playoffs. Having said that, of course he would have competitive enough team to challenge some HGL teams, and "supposedly being able to reach Playoffs in HGL" is of course not a prequisite of acceptance to HGL.
But having said that, it's also one of the things to consider if we're considering if workload should be added quite considerably (from 18 to 20 teams), if teams willing to enter are at the extremely low end of the salary spectrum (like has been the case with first two interested applicants, which would have very likely only won each other during Season 5, creating a combined win-loss record of 1W-37L).

But if we'd expand to 20 teams (as said, I'm not a fan of that at all TBH), then of course they would be taken to play in Play-in mini-league/Play-in Playoffs, to give them a chance to enter. (It could be the case that other manager, manager of better team, fails to set correct lineup and therefore loses the match, but again, proceeding from Play-in is very theoretical in practice if we're talking about 3 or even 10-fold difference in salaries).

As mentioned, for instance Hadár hasn't announced of his interest to join on Season 5 either, but being part of HGL for multiple Seasons, I'd expect him to be aware of the usual deadline that we have in HGL in terms of announcing one's interest to join for next Season (until the end of Regular Season). On the other hand, I've noticed even some experienced managers are not aware of some essential nuances of HGL rules/practices, that have been there since day 1, so I can never know if he (or anyone else) would expect to be able to inform us at any time and expect to be able to enter as soon as on next Season.

Repeated once again, if we'd even consider adding teams to Season 5, the the absolute limit would be 20 teams (and as mentioned, amount of teams allowed/entering to Playoffs would probably have to be changed as well). This, on the other hand, would force us 4 weeks of 3 matches, which is not very good IMHO.

Also, just as a reminder, while these are all necessary conversations to have, it all takes time out of for instance updating certain HGL posts, and keeping on updating HGL stats (which has been the case recently especially). Why do I even mention about it, while it's so obvious (when you think of it)?
Well, some might not think about it that way, and also because I expect that these kind of conversations, into which lots of thought and time must be put in will continue in further Seasons, meaning the workload will at least stay the same.

Note that these are kind of reactive situations, so I'm not even actively driving some change here, but things appear that require time, effort and energy (and based on 3+ Seasons experience, I expect that to continue in the future to some extent at least).
So if required time, effort and energy is surpassing certain limit, then sacrifice in quality would have to take place->that's a no-no.
I'm not willling to give up on HGL team stats for example..