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Hello !

Maybe there could be another mini-league in which the newcomers fight to enter HGL. It could happen during the season or just before the season ending (during the playoffs).

The case where the worst teams could be ejected seems to me unfair. As HomeGrown we surely will know a time where our team will have to re-start, and when we'll have to fire many or some of our players. But we couldn't stay in HGL ?
Ah what a pity !
Maybe I like too much this league, but it would be very sad, for sure.

So, mixing my first idea + this second idea, if we had to make worst tems vs newcomers, we all should be aware before the season. I take an example (because my sentence was really not clear ;)

During S5, all teams know that there are 4 newcomers for S6. In S5, the 4 newcomers play an pre-HGL tournament. The 2 first will take 2 seats in S6. The 2 last in S5 will be "relegated" and they will hve to play a pre-tournament in S6 (to come back in S7 if they win). Managing a small tournement is very easy. The problem is that if there are 8 newcomers, how will we do... ??

Many answers, but more questions... sorry !

Hello !

Maybe there could be another mini-league in which the newcomers fight to enter HGL. It could happen during the season or just before the season ending (during the playoffs).

The case where the worst teams could be ejected seems to me unfair. As HomeGrown we surely will know a time where our team will have to re-start, and when we'll have to fire many or some of our players. But we couldn't stay in HGL ?
Ah what a pity !
Maybe I like too much this league, but it would be very sad, for sure.

So, mixing my first idea + this second idea, if we had to make worst tems vs newcomers, we all should be aware before the season. I take an example (because my sentence was really not clear ;)

During S5, all teams know that there are 4 newcomers for S6. In S5, the 4 newcomers play an pre-HGL tournament. The 2 first will take 2 seats in S6. The 2 last in S5 will be "relegated" and they will hve to play a pre-tournament in S6 (to come back in S7 if they win). Managing a small tournement is very easy. The problem is that if there are 8 newcomers, how will we do... ??
[..]

I completely share your anxiety about "kicking out" current HGL managers by relegation, so much so, that I really try to avoid that scenario if decently possible, but also limitations of all-manual league must be kept in mind.

It's always (at least to me) easier to not accept new requests, than to "kick out" current HGL teams (should there be need to restrict amount of teams playing in given season, just as there likely is on Season 5).

And of course, adding any teams to our roster of 18 teams would force us 2 more additional Rounds during RS, and as you all can conclude from my previous message, it's not preferred by me currently.

And having roster of 20 would again put us into a situation where we could question if 12 teams to Playoffs is enough, and if 12 doesn't seem like enough,
- should that 'major change' (or is it a major change? Opinions likely will differ..) be voted on, and if yes,
- what's the %-amount of votes demanded to enforce the change, and
- it needs to be noted that such changes shouldn't probably be made during that given season when they're supposed to take place, so we would already be in a rush with such voting as well...



I also share your view on that, that we should (at least preferably) know about the possibility of relegation from HGL, before RS has started. The challenge with this is though, than in this case we would have to know the amount of interested teams so to speak '1 season ahead', while in reality most often teams have let us know during the current Season that they'd be interested in participating to next Season.

Of course if it would be a known practice, that let's say that at least worst HGL team is subjected to possibility of relegation, then it wouldn't be an issue through a surprise - it wouldn't erase other negative aspects of it though..



One of the options, which would still give current HGL teams at least a theoretical chance to survive., would be that:

A) newcomers and current HGL teams participate in same "mini-league"/Play-in league

B) newcomers play Play-in league/Play-in Playoffs, and either;
B.1) best of such Playoffs will get place to HGL directly (if there's space and/or current HGL teams would be relegated on that Season), or
B.2) best of such Playoffs will face worst team(s) in HGL in single-elimination match(es), to determine participation rights to next Season

But this doesn't erase the problem, that if any high quality team would decide being interested in participating, they'd win against weakest team in HGL for sure, so chance to not be relegated could be purely theoretical.



This kind of "Play-in/mini-league" during HGL Playoffs has been on HGL rules as well, to potentially solve this situation.

Like you well pointed out; if there are more newcomers than open spots - that's the heart of the dilemma.



Last edited by Wagner at 3/13/2026 6:11:21 AM

Hello !
[..]
The case where the worst teams could be ejected seems to me unfair. As HomeGrown we surely will know a time where our team will have to re-start, and when we'll have to fire many or some of our players. But we couldn't stay in HGL ?
Ah what a pity !
Maybe I like too much this league, but it would be very sad, for sure.
[..]

So one more quick comment on your message. This is not to cancel my earlier message, as I agree with your thoughts and reasoning, but to offer one solution of not being in such a risk of relegation should the possibility to relegate be part of HGL in the future. (Preferably not, as mentioned before).

What I mean is that if you plan your 'team reset/fresh start', at least based on weakest HGL teams rosters on Seasons from 1 to 4, it would be likely that at least no mid-level or higher level teams would be realistically subjected to relegation possibility in reality, as it's not necessary to just throw out all your players at once.

Remember, there's also a minimum salary floor in BB so after certain amount of selling/firing, you wouldn't benefit of having a very cheap roster.

And even if you'd like to "tank" in your "regular BB league", due to what I just mentioned you could even keep those older players in your roster (that wouldn't in best scenario cost you anything, as you'd have to pay for BB minimum salary floor anyway), just to play them in selected games, say, only in HGL games if you'd like to lose as many "regular BB league" games as possible to acquire good drafting position.

So this is just something to keep in mind. Of course it's not an advice/note suited on all situations, but could solve the problem of ending up being truly non-competitive in HGL for some, at least on some seasons.

Point was to say, that you hardly ever fall so hard from being a mid-level team (or possibly even from a lower mid-level team) that you'd end up being the worst team in HGL, unless you knowingly do those choices.

This, of course, doesn't solve the dilemma with my initial willingness to also reward continuous HGL commitment in the case of low top8-salary level teams, which would be in a risk of relegation.

Again, one of those situations, in which if easy/perfect solution would be available, it would've already been implemented...

need to create two leagues:)

Well, just to complicate matters further, I have another team (Aussie!) wishing to join in Season 5. Tassie Devils (38697). He wasn't completely aware of his status as a HG team and neither was I...until yesterday! lol So, I reached out and he has had a quick look at the HGL. With my support, he seems keen for next season.

So, this is both a great sign for the HGL but...as we have been discussing...challenging to accommodate everyone.

Agreed - both good and challenging news simultaneously. Game and work load (governing, keeping up with the HGL stats) is already at a high level, as mentioned before.
As also mentioned before, increase to either of those categories (now 18 teams) wouldn't be positive from my standpoint, so it's a tricky situation.

He seems to have $150K'ish (top8) team in terms of salaries and is very experienced manager, as I had a quick glance of his team. In other words, it would likely be very difficult to reach Playoffs. Having said that, of course he would have competitive enough team to challenge some HGL teams, and "supposedly being able to reach Playoffs in HGL" is of course not a prequisite of acceptance to HGL.
But having said that, it's also one of the things to consider if we're considering if workload should be added quite considerably (from 18 to 20 teams), if teams willing to enter are at the extremely low end of the salary spectrum (like has been the case with first two interested applicants, which would have very likely only won each other during Season 5, creating a combined win-loss record of 1W-37L).

But if we'd expand to 20 teams (as said, I'm not a fan of that at all TBH), then of course they would be taken to play in Play-in mini-league/Play-in Playoffs, to give them a chance to enter. (It could be the case that other manager, manager of better team, fails to set correct lineup and therefore loses the match, but again, proceeding from Play-in is very theoretical in practice if we're talking about 3 or even 10-fold difference in salaries).

As mentioned, for instance Hadár hasn't announced of his interest to join on Season 5 either, but being part of HGL for multiple Seasons, I'd expect him to be aware of the usual deadline that we have in HGL in terms of announcing one's interest to join for next Season (until the end of Regular Season). On the other hand, I've noticed even some experienced managers are not aware of some essential nuances of HGL rules/practices, that have been there since day 1, so I can never know if he (or anyone else) would expect to be able to inform us at any time and expect to be able to enter as soon as on next Season.

Repeated once again, if we'd even consider adding teams to Season 5, the the absolute limit would be 20 teams (and as mentioned, amount of teams allowed/entering to Playoffs would probably have to be changed as well). This, on the other hand, would force us 4 weeks of 3 matches, which is not very good IMHO.

Also, just as a reminder, while these are all necessary conversations to have, it all takes time out of for instance updating certain HGL posts, and keeping on updating HGL stats (which has been the case recently especially). Why do I even mention about it, while it's so obvious (when you think of it)?
Well, some might not think about it that way, and also because I expect that these kind of conversations, into which lots of thought and time must be put in will continue in further Seasons, meaning the workload will at least stay the same.

Note that these are kind of reactive situations, so I'm not even actively driving some change here, but things appear that require time, effort and energy (and based on 3+ Seasons experience, I expect that to continue in the future to some extent at least).
So if required time, effort and energy is surpassing certain limit, then sacrifice in quality would have to take place->that's a no-no.
I'm not willling to give up on HGL team stats for example..

need to create two leagues:)

Thank you for your response, although I do disagree completely with that.
I've previously given my very clear opinion on it, and I by far don't prefer that. (Understandably, those conversations have taken place over long period of time, so you probably haven't read all my reasoning behind that). In other words, I do not want to take HGL into that direction.

I find it a lot better to have a Play-in "mini league"/Play-in Playoffs for HGL participation, that has already been speculated on HGL rules (and that demars mentioned about couple of posts ago).

This way all interested applicants would have their shot at entering HGL.

As mentioned before, if (or in the case) this first time ever-phenomenon of no teams leaving HGL after the Season would be repeated, it might be necessary to make HGL "an open league" (which it of course already is to most extent) in the sense of making relegation possible (again, like demars mentioned in his example, even though that could be altered to some extent to favor current HGL teams, such as not forcing them to play in a Play-in league, but only forced to face strongest team of Play-in league after that has finished, to determine if teams will be relegated/promoted from that Season).

Technically in that "mini-league/Play-in Playoffs" would only one or couple of games would be played per team, but it'd also be 'a meet in the middle'-solution as technically it is "a league" of some sort. But the idea of it should never be to create it an additional wide league/division, but to determine which teams would be able to enter the next HGL Season.

Remember though, that relegation doesn't apply on Season 4, so technically there aren't open spots on Season 5 if we don't expand from 18 teams.

Also, if such relegation/promotion Play-in mini-league or Play-in promotion Playoffs would need to take place, and if simultaneously current HGL team(s) would need to be relegated, I thiink that amount of relegated teams should be kept as a minimum. Currently I'm thinking of only worst HGL team of the Season in question (not this season of course, this would be informed prior to Season beginning as demars well mentioned), who might have to be subjected facing the best team of Play-in league/Playoffs.
And also in the case of Play-in league/Playoffs, all efforts would have to be made to minimize amount of games.

For instance what we'd have here, to be on the realistic side, if we'd use Play-in mini league:
Out of these 4 teams (if Hadár would decide they're interested in joining) I would first set the weakest two (clearly weakest 2 teams) to play against each other one elimination match, and only winner would get to continue, so 3 teams would remain. Then two options to continue:
A) a mini league, everyone faces each once, and certain amount of best teams would be allowed to enter next Season (or winner of it would face worst team in HGL on some forthcoming Seasons) or maybe preferably so that
B) a winner of weakest two would face the worst remaining team in salaries in single elimination match, and winner would advance to a Play-in final against best team (in this theoretical example, against Hadár).
C) if more than 1 HGL team would be subjected to relegation on given Season, then it could be determined that best Play-in league team faces worst HGL team, and so on. But I don't think this number should ever exceed two (worst) teams, and maybe even that's too much to reward continuous commitment of HGL managers. (As I said, I completely share anxiety with demars in terms of kicking out current, committed HGL managers).

The downside of it can be, that it's quite clear who's going to take the place for next Season, should Hadár be applying to enter. But this way, the road to enter wouldn't be that hard for each Season for sure, so time would even up the road.

Last edited by Wagner at 3/15/2026 7:52:53 AM

There is a bit to unpack here, Wagner. I agree that if the league was to expand to a maximum of 20 teams, that we cannot cut corners on the great things already occurring. Namely, stats and the like.

If you think we can expand to 20, and I and/or others were willing to take over certain elements to lessen your work load...would you consider 20 teams.

For example, LennuK is already maintaining weekly stat summaries (thank you, LennuK) and I am still working (slowly) on getting this season's full stats (League Leaders) done and posted by the start of the next HGL Season.[..] On top of this, I am happy to take on something else that would reduce your workload, Wagner. After all, we are all a part of the HGL...[..].

These are my thoughts.

I can consider it, but that shouldn't be taken as a promise/commitment or even as a likely end result for Season 5.
As mentioned; always quality before quantity.
Usually, if one is serious about their HG project, one more Season of waiting doesn't kill their enthusiasm. If it does, it probably wasn't on very high level to begin with. What I mean by this is that is is more likely than not (based on previous 3 Seasons) that at least 1 HGL team will decide to exit after Season 5, which would effectively create space in 18 team HGL Season 6 (to enter through Play-in).

All work done by other managers (LennuK. and yourself) with stats and such is appreciated.
There are maybe some tasks that can be re-distributed to other managers if willing applicants are found, but remember also that time used for current stats collection will go up for everybody, if we expand, that will already take up more time, and then one would also have to find even more time if they would like to end up helping in some other background tasks. And as I need to have some background information available and editable at all times, it is likely necessary for me to keep up doing certain work/tasks myself.

Also, what I refer here as an added workload is just based on my assumption on my own workload increase, not even on your workload increase. For example in stats collecting, if we move from 18 teams to 20 teams, there will be +24,2% of more matches.
That's huge addition, in terms of verifying matches for correctedness and creating all match links, it would require us to create new schedule with new challenging responsibilities, and updating team stats. Remember, my team stats have been updated after Round 9, and tomorrow is Round 17. (Would I want an added 24,2% workload at this point in that regard..? Umm.. no? Remember, that itself for example is not a small task in terms of work load and time usage - if if would be, it'd be done already).

Also I haven't checked out every teams' transfer history, maybe again many teams haven't reported of their transfers and things would need to be updated.
Also salary benefit post for Season 4 hasn't been created.
Tomorrow it is necessary to start making Playoff schedule (ORSR-rankings).
Etc.
You'll see the picture.

I also remind everyone, that it's easier to not accept teams than to reduce the league size by kicking out teams (for no apparent reason, to reduce the league size to bearable, in order to remain high quality/standards, also in terms of statistics updating).

What also needs to be kept in mind is that so far I've had "lots" of time to be allocated for HGL. Nothing guarantees this will be the situation forever, so I don't want to expand things without any control, so that it can be maintained even if there would be even less time that I could allocate into HGL.

See, I came here to update league tables on Friday's games, and here I am still discussing about these rather urgent issues. :) In some cases it's "funny" to catch myself on these situations, well, as long as it's not funny and I notice I don't have time to finish some tasks as other things have taken my time.

Last edited by Wagner at 3/15/2026 8:26:32 AM

As far as teams' potential to join HGL on Season 6, it would be possible to make a relegation possibility also conditional for forthcoming HGL Seasons for example in the following way:

if no current HGL teams would decide to withdraw from HGL (allowing another "new" HG teams to enter "organically"), then the rule would be activated/applied on that ongoing Season, that certain number of worst HGL teams (likely one) would be subjected to possibility of relegation from HGL.
In practice meaning not being able to play in HGL next Season, and having to re-apply to HGL in order to get a place in a league; if open spots would be available on next Season, team could be accepted without a Play-in league/Playoffs, and if there would not be as many spots open as there are willing participants, then re-entering would take place through succeeding in Play-in mini-league or Playoffs - a bit like demars for example wrote just few days ago).

Obviously this hasn't been selected as a method, but I wanted to speculate it a bit further now that it came on my mind.

Last edited by Wagner at 3/15/2026 8:46:36 AM