BuzzerBeater Forums

After seeing JoeMaverick's proposed 10-week season schedule (304302.65)(304302.70)(304302.80), it makes me think about replacing scrimmages with league games.

In the world of BuzzerBeater, a player's game shape is designed to be mainly influenced by weekly minutes.
Therefore, when key players start in both league matches, backup players still need to get enough weekly minutes outside of the league.

We can imagine that there is another system with simple internal matches, providing only weekly minutes.
Clearly, the current system with national tournaments and scrimmages is more interesting.

The current issue is that without cup matches, the lineup strategy becomes somewhat boring.
(It must be that key players start in both league matches.)
Unlike during national tournament, choices need to be made in three matches.

With the restriction of four matches per week for setting the lineup, except in special cases,
if it's acceptable to have three league matches in a week, then I have another solution.

Plan B

1. Replacing cup and scrimmages with league matches and add another 8 league matches.
(and switch the Monday NT match with the Tuesday league match.)

The following is the schedule.

Week 1~5
Sat. G1(G4,G7,G10,G13)
Mon. G2(G5,G8,G11,G14)
Tue. - (NT 1,2,3,4)
Wed. B3/BBM 1(2,3,4,5)
Thu. G3(G6,G9,G12,G15)

Week 6
Sat. international scrimmage (arranged by system)
Sun. B3/BBM 6
Mon. international scrimmage (arranged by system)
Tue. NT 5
Wed. B3/BBM 7
Thu. scrimmage (arranged by managers)
Fri. NT 6

Week 7~11
Sat. G16(G19,G22,G25,G28)
Mon. G17(G20,G23,G26,G29)
Tue. NT 7(8,9,10,11)
Wed. B3/BBM 8(9,10,11,12)
Thu. G18(G21,G24,G27,G30)

Week 12
Sat. PO/RL1/national scrimmage (arranged by system)
Mon. SF/RL2/national scrimmage (arranged by system)
Tue. NT 12
Wed. B3/BBM 13
Thu. F1/RL3/scrimmage (arranged by managers)
Fri. (NT 13 for Continental tournament)

Week 13
Sat. F2/national scrimmage (arranged by system)
Sun. F3
Mon. NT 13(14 for Continental tournament)

- To avoid teams intentionally losing to earn attendance revenue of the 3rd relegation match, they receive a fixed amount award after the demotion results are announced.
- The four playoff matches, including two semi-finals and two finals, will have their ticket revenues pooled and evenly distributed among the four participating teams.
- # of matches for attendance revenue / times player salaries are paid:
current system: 11 / 12, 11+0.5 / 13, 11+1 / 13, 11+1.5 / 14, 11+2+0.33or0.66 /14
new system: 15 / 12, 15+0.5 /12, 15+1+0.5 / 13, 15+0.5+1 / 13, 15+0.5+1+0.33or0.66 /13
- The Baseline Weekly Economy on the economy page should be changed to the average weekly attendance revenue.
For example, the single-game attendance revenue multiplied by 15/12.
- Change the boycott from 1/3 of the season to 1/4 of the season.
- In the Fan Survey section of the National Tournament, change it to BBM and B3.
It may be necessary to add a team's rank within the tier.
- Scheduling scrimmage in postseason would be as urgent and challenging as losing the first cup match during the All-Star week.
- It might require more high-salary players.
While the increased income from more matches can cover this, the price will rise if the supply of players remains unchanged.
It might be necessary to moderately increase the supply of players.
For example, Plan E in (319331.191) for the 4-player version of training.

Last edited by little Guest at 04/23/2024 10:32:49

If you feel that playing three league matches per week is too intense, then I have a solution that falls between scrimmages and league matches.

Plan C
After being eliminated from the cup, teams will enter a ranked tournament instead of a scrimmage.

Ranked tournament:
- Held on Thursdays.
- A total of 11 matches from Week 2 to Week 11 (with two matches during the All-Star week).

- All human teams that have been eliminated from the cup or did not participate at the beginning will participate.
After the cup ends, the champion and runners-up will also enter the ranked tournament.
- The records and match history from the cup will be retained for the ranked tournament.
The records of teams still participating in the cup can be displayed and ranked together on the ranked tournament page.
- Teams that did not participate in the cup at the beginning start with a record of 0 wins and 1 loss.
- Rankings can be displayed with different colors to indicate different divisions, similar to how it is done in the cup.

- Using a system similar to the Monrad system:
#1 meets #2, #3 meets #4, etc.,
each team is paired with the next opponent, excluding repeats.

- Attitude is set to normal, the same as in scrimmages. (Open to discussion.)
- Just like in scrimmages, this gives your team an extra day of training and experience.
- Neutral area (open to ...)

- In the early stages, it is necessary to retain a certain number of computer teams.
For each round, let x be the # of teams in the ranked tournament.
If x>12, # of Bot = 0 (if x is even) and = 1 (if x is odd.)
If x<=12, # of Bot = 14 - x.
- When a newly signed-up team is created, regardless of whether they were previously in the ranked tournament, they will be added to the ranked tournament with a record of 0 wins and N losses.
New matches will be scheduled for them, and computer teams will be added if necessary.
- During ranking, computer teams are always placed behind human teams.
But when a new team is created, the newly added team (including necessary computer teams) is an exception.

- Reduce the number of scheduling scrimmages.
Some people may find scheduling scrimmages bothersome.
Thanks to the pickup game. It won't affect the fun of playing against your friends, rivals, or a team from a distant country.

Add an additional statement to the Fan Survey: "The team had a good run in the ranked tournament this year."
- Even if the ranked tournament isn't that significant, fans can't tolerate the rankings dropping to a certain extent.
- The overall ratio of the national ranking can be used, for example, the ratio of being ranked 10th out of 150 would be 10/150, to set the acceptable range, for example, 3/8.

The extra promotion spot in the league will be determined by the ranking in the ranked tournament.
- Teams that have entered the playoffs will be promoted based on their ranking in the ranked tournament.
If there are not enough teams, the remaining teams that did not enter the playoffs will be promoted according to their ranking in the ranked tournament.
- Improve the issue of teams with notably low salaries and exempt from paying the minimum total salary promoting to higher division. (319749.2)

The 1st-place team, if it also qualifies for the playoffs, will receive the same extra cash and boost as the league champions.
(available to teams not necessarily in Division I, but the effects and cash cannot be cumulative.)

Award is open to discussion.
- The higher the cash prize, the more attractive the ranked tournament is to teams.
- I suggest using the following piecewise linear function for scaling up or down and awarding bonuses after the PO Trade Deadline:
1st place: 500,000
17th place: 312,500
81st place: 187,500
337th place: 125,000
1361st place: 100,000
5457th place (non-existent): 75,000
(This way, rewards are visible and tangible, making them more motivating.)

Last edited by little Guest at 04/22/2024 05:50:32

It looks like you put a lot of thought into this, but I'm strongly against changing this much of the set schedule. I personally like the current setup. Even if I was in favor of this change, it would be a nightmare for the BBs in terms of hours that would need to be put in on the backend and an overall challenge with coding the new schedule system.

Your response seems to be directed towards Plan B,
but I'd like to confirm: is this your opinion specifically about Plan B, or about both Plan B and Plan C?
Thank you.

Mostly towards Plan B although Plan C doesn’t appeal to me in a big way either (even though that one has less backend work to be implemented).

We can imagine that initially it might have been just simple internal matches, providing only weekly minutes.
Later, the current system was introduced, with national tournaments and scrimmages, making it more interesting.

No, national tournament (cup) and scrimmages have been part of Buzzerbeater since its implementation.

Otherwise, you did spend lots of time and effort with your proposal, congrats for that, even if I do not really agree with them.

We can imagine that initially it might have been just simple internal matches, providing only weekly minutes.
Later, the current system was introduced, with national tournaments and scrimmages, making it more interesting.

No, national tournament (cup) and scrimmages have been part of Buzzerbeater since its implementation.

Okay. I modified it to this:
We can imagine that there is another system with simple internal matches, providing only weekly minutes.
Clearly, the current system with national tournaments and scrimmages is more interesting.

btw, I only know that JoeMaverick's proposition was rejected by the community. (304302.89)
But has anyone investigated where people's acceptance range lies for Thursday matches in terms of match intensity?
The following are some options I come up with:
Option 1: All scrimmages
Option 2: Current system: cup + scrimmages
Option 3: Cup + (intensity between cup and scrimmage) + scrimmages (playoffs)
Others

For me, option 2 and option 3 are okay.
But I'm a bit worried that option 3 or Plan C might not yield the expected results or could introduce new problems.

Last edited by little Guest at 04/23/2024 11:00:02

Scrimmages are for me one of the worst parts of the game. Tedious to schedule and only meaningful impact is training minutes and game shape management. I generally set my lineup after game Tuesday and don't check back until Friday morning to see training results. BBM was a good idea to help bridge the gap a bit, but it still seems a bit too random to be anything more than a curiosity.

However, game shape and training are heavily tied to this 2 + 1 format and managing minutes is very important when trying to make a deep cup run. I don't see how any other system would handle this without a MAJOR system change that the community is divided at best on and Marin doesn't have the resources to undertake anyways.

It would be a monumental effort, but I'd be more interested to see an "add-on" game that utilizes the existing engine and player progression system, but lives in a separate universe. Almost like a Utopia, but not even tied into the same player database. You could either do "arena style challenges only" or maybe just a faster league play and/or joinable round robin leagues based on your tier level. Something like Rival Stars or Top Eleven are the ideas here but with the BB universe touch to it. Something like this would attract newer users and a certain percentage of them may eventually convert to play the "Long Game" once they understand the mechanics and gameplay. Especially with proper cross promotion in-game.

The framework for a potential game is already created. But you would need a separate development team and have to hope that it would pay for itself in the long run through ads, supporter, in-game purchases, etc. The danger of splitting the userbase is still there, but I'd like to think they would have more synergy than competition. Especially if you make it more surface level and have less depth to it so they fulfill different needs.

Scrimmages are for me one of the worst parts of the game. Tedious to schedule and only meaningful impact is training minutes and game shape management. I generally set my lineup after game Tuesday and don't check back until Friday morning to see training results. BBM was a good idea to help bridge the gap a bit, but it still seems a bit too random to be anything more than a curiosity.

Does this plan in (323515.1) improve the situation you mentioned about BBM?

It would be a monumental effort, but I'd be more interested to see an "add-on" game that utilizes the existing engine and player progression system, but lives in a separate universe. Almost like a Utopia, but not even tied into the same player database. You could either do "arena style challenges only" or maybe just a faster league play and/or joinable round robin leagues based on your tier level. Something like Rival Stars or Top Eleven are the ideas here but with the BB universe touch to it. Something like this would attract newer users and a certain percentage of them may eventually convert to play the "Long Game" once they understand the mechanics and gameplay. Especially with proper cross promotion in-game.

The framework for a potential game is already created. But you would need a separate development team and have to hope that it would pay for itself in the long run through ads, supporter, in-game purchases, etc. The danger of splitting the userbase is still there, but I'd like to think they would have more synergy than competition. Especially if you make it more surface level and have less depth to it so they fulfill different needs.

This reminds me of pickup games.
It feels like pickup games might have the potential to serve more purposes than just testing tactics.

However, game shape and training are heavily tied to this 2 + 1 format and managing minutes is very important when trying to make a deep cup run. I don't see how any other system would handle this without a MAJOR system change that the community is divided at best on and Marin doesn't have the resources to undertake anyways.

It feels like you're trying to solve a bigger issue, like how to keep managers excited between Wednesday and Friday.
I agree that keeping managers excited while maintaining the 2 + 1 format is very difficult.
But in this thread, I focus on a smaller issue: whether we can make the matches on Saturday, Tuesday, and Thursday more interesting than when Thursday is a scrimmage.
What do you think about the Plan C in (323509.2)?

Does this plan in (323515.1) improve the situation you mentioned about BBM?

Not really. That just makes more meaningless games to ignore. I'd prefer scaled rewards by tier and fewer tiers. So moving up actually means something and you can see progress over time.

It feels like pickup games might have the potential to serve more purposes than just testing tactics.

Yes, this may be a good vehicle. But I think it is important to have the option to create your own team to compete. Goal is to engage new users since it can take literal years to build a competitive team. Most don't have the patience for that right out the gate, and those that do may be frustrated when they find they spent a year building players that are not competitive. I'm thinking to have a limited budget to create a team and then a leaderboard where you can challenge other teams for supremacy. Maybe you can add some fully customized starter potential players that are not available for league/cup/B3 play? Or just a 3rd team you can switch between like Utopia and only plays pickups & special tournaments?

What do you think about the Plan C in (323509.2)?

I don't really like it. Cup already takes resources away from league play where I have to decide whether or not to throw league games to stay in the cup. At least scrimmages are meaningless where this would be detrimental. Adding a 2nd lower level cup for teams knocked out of main cup by X round would be okay. I'd prefer the option for a walkover style 3rd game of the week once cup is over. You set your squad and they get minutes based on walkover rules. Some people will still want to collect flags, etc. But those who find it tedious and pointless can still manage minutes and get training.

Last edited by Gccsteel at 04/26/2024 15:32:25